Dr. Umar Toseeb Hello, welcome to the Papers Podcast series for the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health, or ACAMH for short. I’m Umar Toseeb, Professor of Psychology. My research focuses on Special Educational Needs and mental health in childhood and adolescence. All listeners to this, and indeed any of ACAMH’s podcasts, are eligible for a free CPD certificate. Do please visit acamhlearn.org for details of this, together with information on how you can access hundreds of hours of free talks, lectures, interviews, all of which you can also get free CPD certificates for. The web address is acamhlearn.org, that’s a-c-a-m-h-l-e-a-r-n.org. If you’re a fan of our Papers Podcast series, please subscribe on your preferred streaming platform, let us know how we did, with a rating or review, and do share with your friends and colleagues. The focus of today’s podcast will be Teacher Mental Health and Wellbeing, in recognition of World Mental Health Day on Thursday the 10th of October. The theme for 2024 is “It’s Time to Prioritise Mental Health in the Workplace.” Today, I’ll be talking to Professor Jonathan Glazzard, the first Rosalind Hollis Professor of Education for Social Justice in the School of Education at University of Hull. Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us. Can you just begin by telling us a bit about who you are and what your background is? Professor Jonathan Glazzard So, I’ve been a Teacher. I worked as a Teacher for ten years in primary schools and also as a SENCO. And then, in 2005, I moved into universities, in Teacher education, training Teachers, and I’ve done that for a long time, actually, and then gradually worked my way to Professor. So, my background is very much rooted in education and teaching. I’m still really, really passionate about education. I think it’s really powerful. I think it can be really transformative. It can really change people’s lives, but for the last few years, I’ve been focusing on mental health. So, I’ve been supporting schools probably since about 2018, when mental health became a big focus in schools. I’ve been supporting schools with implementing whole school approaches to mental health. My research is now focusing much more on mental health and wellbeing. Dr. Umar Toseeb Yeah, excellent, and that brings us nicely to my next question, which is around the term ‘mental health’. So, I know that in different contexts, mental health means different things. Mental health and wellbeing is a broad phrase. In the context of Teacher mental health and wellbeing, which is what we’re going to, hopefully, talk about, what kinds of things should we be bearing in mind when you – when we talk about Teacher mental health and wellbeing? What will you be talking about? Professor Jonathan Glazzard Well, I think we’ll talk about the current state of Teacher wellbeing and mental health in the UK, but also globally. We’ll talk about burnout, we’ll talk about job satisfaction, we’ll talk about stress, maybe school cultures and issues of retention. Dr. Umar Toseeb Okay, and so, what is the state of Teacher mental health in the UK at the moment? Professor Jonathan Glazzard Education Support, the national charity which exists to support Teachers, really, in crisis, based in London, they’ve been doing a survey called the “Teacher Wellbeing Index,” which they publish every year, round about November time. They’ve done that for the last five/six years and every year, the state of Teacher wellbeing and mental health appears to be getting worse. So, we know that Teachers are experiencing significant spouts of stress and anxiety and work-related stress and depression and lots of other mental health conditions because of their jobs. Dr. Umar Toseeb And a two-part question, so what influences Teacher mental health and wellbeing, and also, do we know why it’s getting worse? Professor Jonathan Glazzard It’s complex, so you can’t really pinpoint one particular thing. Obviously, stress and workload, you know, the workload in teaching is immense. Teachers are under significant pressure. There’s never enough hours in the day for them to do their jobs and they often have to take work home with them and work evenings and weekends and holidays. And that’s a significant issue, but the issue isn’t just restricted to workload. So, there are some really significant issues with school cultures. So, Teachers are working – some Teachers are working in very – what I would describe as very toxic environments, very negative cultures, where essentially, they don’t feel supported and they’re not valued and they’re not given any professional autonomy. So, there are – there’s those issues around school culture. I think the broader climate in which education operates, you know, the intense focus on having to get results and having to perform constantly as a Teacher, the high stakes nature of assessment is really not helping that situation. Dr. Umar Toseeb And are some of those influences different depending on career status, for example, for Teachers, or primary or secondary, or even, like, the type of teaching staff that you are, as in, like, a Teacher or a Teaching Assistant? Will those influences be different for those groups, or are there some things that are just common? Professor Jonathan Glazzard The issue around Teacher wellbeing and mental health is it’s evident across Teachers of all stages of their careers. So, you can’t just pinpoint it and say, well, actually, it’s just this specific group of Teachers who experience these challenges. I think all Teachers are experiencing challenges with the role, but we know there’s a significant issue with early career Teachers. So, far too many early career Teachers, actually, they’re not staying in teaching. So, many of them – about a third of them leave within the first five years, which is really concerning when you consider how much they’ve invested into their training, you know, financially and personally and also how much public investment has been made into Teacher training. The fact that they’re not staying in teaching for significant amounts of time is a concern. So, there’s particular issues there with early career Teachers, and I think one of the issues is that when they’re training to be a Teacher, in a way, they’re cocooned from some of the issues. They’re not exposed to all the issues in teaching and then, they, sort of, experience a bit of a culture shock when they go into teaching and it isn’t what they thought it was going to be. And then, they suddenly realise they’re accountable for children’s progress. They get held to account for children’s progress and that pressure to drive up results and to perform as a Teacher really, kind of, hits them at that stage. And I think that they’re, sort of, protected from that in their training. So, we need to think about Teacher education and how we can more effectively prepare Teachers for that so that maybe it’s not as much of a culture shock when they go into teaching. In terms of primary/secondary, I think whether you’re teaching in primary, secondary or special education or alternative provision, I think all Teachers across all of those sectors are experiencing stress and issues of workload. I think it cuts across all of those sectors, but I think the challenges differ from sector-to-sector. You know, we can’t really pinpoint and just say, “Oh, those issues only exist in secondary schools, because, you know, behaviour’s a problem.” Well, actually, we know behaviour’s also a problem in primary schools. Children’s mental health is a problem in primary schools and secondary schools, so it cuts across all bases. I think the question about role type is really, really interesting, because yes, Teachers experience stress and other mental health conditions. However, staff that are in pastoral roles, they experience particular challenges. So, often, you know, staff in pastoral roles are staff that are supporting – specifically employed to support behaviour. They’re often interfacing with children in crisis. They’re working with children in crisis. They’re supporting children who experience trauma. They’re supporting families, actually, in crisis. And the risk, then, for those staff, is that they can experience secondary trauma and they can – you know, there’s a risk that they can take all those problems home. They’re dealing with very complex issues, so we need to think about that group of staff. So, for example, staff that are supporting safeguarding, the Safeguarding Leads, the Special Educational Needs Co-ordinator, the Pastoral Leads, they’re all, sort of, interfacing with families and services and actually dealing with some of those really thorny issues that are affecting children’s mental health. And that can result in particular stressors for those staff in those roles. Dr. Umar Toseeb And I’m just going to pick up on something you mentioned earlier about Teacher training. You mentioned there might be an aspect of people being cocooned and then, when the reality hits of being in a classroom with pupils, then that becomes very difficult. My understanding of Teacher training, and I know there’s various different routes, is a lot of it is – comes from government, as in there’s lots of DfE requirements. The time that people undergo training is quite limited, as well. Is there more that training providers can do outside of what’s mandated by the government or the government guidelines? Professor Jonathan Glazzard Well, I think that’s a really interesting question and of course, the government framework is supposed to be a minimum framework that initial Teacher training providers must implement and must teach. It’s a minimum framework. It’s not supposed to be the whole curriculum that is delivered. But actually, if we’re talking about PGCE programmes, which are essentially nine/ten months long, and the trainees spend most of their time in school, there’s a limit to actually what the universities can do, or what the Teacher training providers can do to introduce additional content into the curriculum. Now, one of my concerns about the government, it’s called the ITTECF framework, so the Initial Teacher Training and Early Career Framework, and it outlines the minimum curriculum content which providers must deliver, there’s very much a focus on subject knowledge. There’s very much a focus on pedagogical approaches in the classroom and I don’t have an issue with that. However, there’s very little on mental health. In fact, there’s nothing really in there on mental health and wellbeing. So, what we then end up with is we end up with trainees then that become Teachers, who then are then trying to support children’s mental health, but they’re not adequately prepared to support children’s mental health, because actually, that’s not mandated within the initial Teacher training curriculum. So, what we need to do is make sure that Teacher training – we really need to rethink Teacher education and we need to make sure that it’s providing trainee Teachers with the practical skills they need to deal with the day-to-day challenges that they will encounter in the classroom. And we know there are significant challenges now with SEND. We see more and more children with special educational needs. We see more and more children with poor mental health. We see more and more children that are not going to school because of anxiety-related absence. And actually, these issues are inadequately addressed within the Teacher training curriculum and part of the reason for that is because the government isn’t mandating that content within the framework. So, we do need to really rethink Teacher education to make sure that trainees have got the skills and knowledge to be able to support those children. Dr. Umar Toseeb Thank you, and you’ve touched on this already, but I think we talked about the impact for Teacher mental health and wellbeing on retention or pedagogy of Teachers and I think that’s a really important point. What are some of the impacts for Teacher mental health and wellbeing on the pupils themselves? Like, what might be happening? So, if we have a workforce that has high levels of stress, burnout, etc., what might the knock-on effect be on children? Professor Jonathan Glazzard A few years ago I did a study on this and I was really interested in exploring the impact of Teacher mental health on pupils, and I started off trying to draw a link between Teacher mental health and attainment, pupil attainment. However, it’s very difficult to do that in a robust way because obviously, there’s lots of other influences on pupils’ attainment. You know, some children have private Study Tutors, some children have more support from home, etc. So, me and my colleague, we talked to 64 children, and we asked them about the mental health of their Teachers and how it affected them, and they told us some really interesting things. So, they told us that, particularly primary school children, they told us that they can absolutely pick up when their Teacher’s not feeling good or when there’s something not quite right with their Teacher. They’re very attuned to their – to how their Teachers are feeling. They told us that when their Teacher wasn’t happy, that impacted on them. They didn’t want to make the situation worse for the Teacher, so they didn’t ask any questions in class. They were just really compliant, and they just got on with their work and if they got stuck, they didn’t say anything because they didn’t want to stress their Teacher anymore. And they said that they learned more when their Teacher was happy and performing well, and actually, when their Teacher wasn’t happy, that really impacted on their learning. Now, we then talked to Teachers who self-diagnosed as having poor mental health and Teachers who self-diagnosed as having good mental health. And the Teachers who identified as having poor mental health said to us that when they had poor mental health, it impacted on their teaching. They said, you know, they struggled to concentrate in lessons, they struggled to – actually, they struggled to really think about their teaching and break it down and to teach things clearly and coherently. They were actually saying to us, “I’ve experienced this, I’ve had poor mental health and it’s impacted on my teaching. It’s impacted on my ability to give clear explanations. It’s impacted on my with-it ness in the classroom,” because actually, they’re thinking about all the other issues that are causing their poor mental health and their mind isn’t totally on the job. So, that came from the Teachers, which we thought was fascinating. Dr. Umar Toseeb And I’m trying to think of indirect ways in which you could investigate the relationship between Teacher mental health and children’s development. And I suppose if we have a workforce where there’s high levels of stress and burnout, I would imagine, like you said, there’s – there’d be low levels of retention, I’d imagine high levels of Teacher absence, maybe… Professor Jonathan Glazzard Yeah. Dr. Umar Toseeb …like sick leave? And then, that would result in probably more cover Teachers coming in. I suppose you could look at the relationship between those indicators, like Teacher retention, Teacher absence and the use of cover Teachers on pupil’s attainment and use it as a proxy. Would that be a reasonable measure? Professor Jonathan Glazzard Yes, it would. That would be interesting. We did speak to Headteachers, as well, as part of that research and they identified Teachers who’d gone off sick for significant periods of time and they talked about the impact that had on the classes those Teachers were teaching. And in quite a lot of cases, they said, you know, “A Supply Teacher came in” – and it isn’t necessarily anything wrong the Supply Teacher’s doing, it’s just the fact that children perform better with their Teachers because they have a relationship with them. So, they said that often, what happened is, when the Teachers went off for significant periods of time, the Supply Teachers came in, the classes fell behind because the Supply Teachers didn’t know the children as well as the Teachers. So, they couldn’t always pitch the learning at the right level. And then, what they actually said was, those classes then, one year later/two years later, “they never actually caught up.” So, it had that long lasting impact. I think one of the issues is that many Teachers actually continue working. So, we have this presenteeism culture in teaching where even though their mental health is really impacted, they still continue working, ‘cause they don’t want to let the school down. They don’t want to let the children down, so they carry on working and that then impacts on their teaching and then it begins to impact on the children. And of course, if they’ve got poor mental health, not only does it impact on the children’s learning, because the children can pick up on it, but it also impacts on their ability to support children who are experiencing poor mental health. Because, you know, if they’re struggling themselves, they have less capacity to actually then support children. And it also impacts on things like the way they support children’s behaviour, as well, because, you know, from our research, the children said to us that when their Teacher wasn’t feeling great, which they could pick up on, they became snappy, they became irritable. They didn’t always manage behaviour in a way that was supportive. So, I think what you’re suggesting would be helpful, but then we have to factor in the fact that it’s not just Teachers who go off sick who experience poor mental health. Teachers actually continue working. Dr. Umar Toseeb Thank you, and we know from research on children that those who belong to a marginalised group, for example neurodiverse children or ethnic minority children, LGBTQ adolescents, etc., have a different experience and have differing mental health compared to neurotypical or the other groups. And I know that you’ve done some work on the experiences of neurodiverse Teachers and their mental health. Can you tell us a bit about that and also, any work that you’ve done with other marginalised groups? Professor Jonathan Glazzard Yeah, so Teachers who are dyslexic, we’ve done some research on this and what their – their experiences tell us that often, they’re very – particularly if they’re trainees and, you know, they’re on a Teacher training programme, they’re often very well supported in the university context. And then, they go into school placements, all the support often falls down, because teaching is a very, how shall I say this? It’s very ableist profession, so Teachers are expected to be literate and, you know, numerate and have high standards in reading and spelling and then, they go into schools and this is what they said to me, that, basically, they get criticised for making spelling mistakes. And they’re expected to remember huge amounts of information which they struggle to process because they’ve got dyslexia. They’re expected to write long reports on children, which they struggle and then, they might make some spelling mistakes or some grammatical errors, then they get criticised for that. And we know from the research, this is also true of Teacher – you know, qualified Teachers with dyslexia. Often, they make brilliant Teachers because they’re really creative, they’re really, you know, imaginative, they can think laterally and actually, they’re very good because they’ve had dyslexia themselves and they’ve struggled with reading and writing. They’re very good at supporting children who have those difficulties because they know how to break it down and support them. So, like, adapting their teaching and differentiating their teaching almost becomes automatic to them, but then they – the flipside is that they get discriminated against because they struggle with some of the things that Teachers are expected to do, such as spelling, such as writing, such as reading. Yeah, that’s a real concern. Also done some research with Teachers who are LGBTQ and that’s interesting, because some of those Teachers that I interviewed were able to use their personal identity, because they identified as being LGBTQ, they were able to use that in a positive way to advance social justice and inclusion within their school context. So many of those Teachers were leading on whole school approaches to LGBTQ inclusion. I’m not saying that it should necessarily fall on that person, that the responsibility should be on that person, but they were passionate about doing that work and being positive role models for their students. However, some of those Teachers that I interviewed were told to ‘tone down’ their sexualities. They were told to keep their sexualities secret. They were told to not inform the children, not inform the parents, and basically, they had to then negotiate their identities. So, they had to really think about how they presented themselves, how they spoke, all those things that are attached to our identities. So, some Teachers chose to, kind of, intertwine their personal and professional identities and some Teachers chose to completely separate them, or they were forced to separate their personal identity from their professional identity, which I thought was interesting. But also, we know that Teachers who are LGBTQ and also, you know, we could think about Teachers who – from global majority populations. We could think about race or ethnicity. Those Teachers, because they experience discrimination, they’re exposed to additional stressors. So, for example, you know, they may experience discrimination, they may be denied promotion because of their identities. They may be denied opportunities. They may experience verbal abuse from parents, for example, or they may experience verbal abuse from children. So, that’s one form of stress, where it’s like an external stress. It comes from outside, but it impacts on the individual. But then, there’s an internal stress, where they might worry about those negative things happening and those negative things might not actually happen, but they might constantly be living with the anticipation that something bad is going to happen, you know. They’re going to lose their job. They’re going to experience discrimination. They’re not going to get that promotion. They’re going to get abused by a parent or by a child, or even by a colleague. And living with that constant anticipation that something negative is going to happen is actually an internal form of stress, which then obviously impacts on their mental health. So, what I would say, and this is a very longwinded way of saying this, but what I would say is that Teachers with minority and global majority identities often are exposed to additional stressors, which then increase the chance or likelihood of developing poor mental health. Dr. Umar Toseeb Thank you, and I suppose we’ve talked a lot about the problems and I think it would be interesting to think about looking forward, some of the potential solutions. And so, I suppose what are some of the answers to some of these problems and like – so, at the level of the individual, at the level of school leaders, for example, and also the level of the government, what can be done differently? Professor Jonathan Glazzard So, in terms of resilience, we know that resilience isn’t just something within a person and Teachers are often told they need to be more resilient. However, we know that resilience operates within a socioecological framework. So, if Teachers have got access to support, if they’ve got access to social networks or friends or families, and also positive workplace cultures in which they can thrive, all of those things will increase their resilience. So, one thing that Teachers can do is reach out for social support when they’re experiencing a problem. They can – you know, they need to talk to people. They need to reach out and not keep it bottled inside. I think school leaders really need to think about the school cultures they’re creating. Far too many Teachers are working within toxic school cultures, where they’re not trusted, where they’re micromanaged, where they’re exposed to ridiculous expectations about work. They’re asked to do jobs that actually have no impact on children at all. They’re just unnecessary tasks. They’re asked to do ridiculous amounts of planning and recordkeeping and documenting, and they’re told that, for example, “OFSTED expect this” and therefore, they’re asked to do all of those additional tasks. But OFSTED have been clear, and I think the DfE have been clear, over a number of years, that actually, they don’t expect Teachers to do those tasks. You know, there is no one way of planning a lesson and there is no one model of teaching that they have to follow. So, I think some of the – I think sometimes, OFSTED get blamed for creating that stress on Teachers and I’m not saying it’s not stressful, undergoing the inspection, but I think sometimes, school leaders use OFSTED as a way of saying to their colleagues, “Oh, well, OFSTED expect this” and therefore they use that as a reason for creating more pressure and increasing Teachers’ workloads. So, I think we need to really think about creating those positive school cultures in which Teachers can thrive and for me, that’s – you know, the key role of a leader is to support staff and develop staff and to provide staff with autonomy and therefore, that needs to go into leadership training. I think that’s really essential that leadership training includes how to get the best out of people, because there’s too much stick, I think, rather than carrot. I think Teachers get told they’re doing things wrong a lot. So, I think that’s key. I think the other thing that we can do is think about professional supervision for staff that are in key roles. So, in many professions there’s a model of external professional supervision, for example in counselling, where you have the opportunity to talk about your work and offload and get support from somebody who’s external to the organisation. Now, what we know is there’s many staff in school that are interfacing with parents and children in crisis, parents in crisis, children who’ve experienced trauma and yet, they don’t have any professional supervision. And I think that’s really key that they do have professional supervision, because they’re making lifechanging decisions. You know, they’re sitting in case reviews of children. They’re meeting Social Workers, they’re meeting Psychologists and they’re talking to families and children and dealing with trauma. And if they don’t have professional supervision, then there’s a real risk that they will also develop secondary trauma as a result of being exposed to that trauma. And then, I think the other thing we need to – this is a very timely thing. The government are doing a curriculum review and assessment review at the moment, and I think they should do that review through the lens of wellbeing and mental health. We have a mental health crisis with young people, as well as with Teachers, and we have a curriculum and an assessment system that exposes young people to stress. Now is the opportunity to really think about how to develop assessment that will alleviate some of that stress on both children and Teachers and to really think about a curriculum, developing a curriculum that really embeds mental health and wellbeing. I think this is an opportunity now to think differently about curriculum and assessment. Dr. Umar Toseeb Thank you. This is wide-ranging suggestions at all levels. It’s very helpful. Moving onto the future for you and your research. Is there any upcoming research on Teacher mental health and wellbeing that you’d like to let us know about? Professor Jonathan Glazzard I am actually researching the experiences of young disabled queer people at the moment. So, I’m not specifically looking at Teacher mental health, but what I am interested in and what I am dipping my toe in at the moment is prison education and the challenges of prison educators, because we have the same issues there. So, many prison educators are extremely stressed. They’ve got poor mental health. They’re inadequately prepared to do the role because there’s no specialist training to be a prison educator. Also, they’re dealing with very challenging behaviours which they’re not prepared for and therefore, the issue we then have is that retention is an issue. So, they come into prison education and then, they leave very quickly because they can’t – they struggle to meet the challenges. So, I’ve done a couple of papers, actually, but they’re just going through peer review at the moment, on the challenges and potential solutions around prison educators, which has taken me into a new field, really. Dr. Umar Toseeb We look forward to reading those, and finally, what’s your take home message for our listeners? Professor Jonathan Glazzard Teaching is a vocation, but it’s also a job, isn’t it? And at the end of the day, nothing is more important than your mental health. So, however stressed you are feeling about your job, however demanding your job is, at the end of the day, it’s a job and you have to put your health first. I think it’s crucial, and the take home message there is you can’t enable young people to thrive, actually, if you’re not thriving. You have to prioritise your own mental health and wellbeing and if that means, actually, you’re not in the right environment, you’re not in the right school where you’re not being supported, then move to a school where you’re more supported. But fo – prioritise your mental health because that will enable you to more effectively support young people’s mental health in the classroom. Dr. Umar Toseeb As always, please visit the ACAMH website, www.acamh.org, and Twitter @ACAMH, where you can find out more about Professor Glazzard’s work. ACAMH is spelt A-C-A-M-H, and don’t forget to follow us on your preferred streaming platform, let us know if you enjoy the podcast, with a rating or review, and do share with your friends and colleagues.