Beth Cumber Hi, I'm Beth. I'm a second  year PhD student at the University of   Warwick and my background is in child  and adolescent mental health nursing. Jasmine Snowden My name's Jasmine Snowden. I'm  an Adult and Mental Health Nurse by background.   I spent most of my clinical life in Child  and Adolescent Mental Health Services,   both inpatient and community, and I'm currently  a Senior Teaching Fellow and the Programme   Lead of the Masters of Nursing Programme  at the university of Southampton [pause]. Beth   Cumber So, my journey started by studying  psychology at university and during that time,   became really interested in, kind of, the  clinical world of mental health. And so,   then I went on to study my mental health nursing  and from there, I worked in inpatient CAMHS   services on their Eating Disorders Unit and also,  on their General Admissions Unit. And then, I went   to work in community CAMHS and studied for my CBT  postgraduate diploma. I mean, I think the main   thing that encouraged me to pursue that career  is just, kind of, my initially, my interest in   psychology, and then I think it just lent itself  to some of my skills. Kind of, being told that I   m a good listener and can stay relatively calm in  situations and so, then, yeah, I thought mental   health nursing was a good fit. And then, the more  that I learnt about it, the more opportunities   I saw that there were. So, yeah, it s gone from  there, really, and now I m studying for my PhD. Jasmine Snowden Okay, and then, I m Jasmine and  my clinical background is I started looking at   mental health nursing courses straight out of  sixth form, after going to a careers fair and,   kind of, looking at my interests around  psychology, but also wanting to help people.   And, kind of, highlighted in my health and social  care course about the stigma that surrounds mental   health, and I wanted to be a part of breaking  down that stigma. So, took up the mental health   nursing course and also did my adult nursing  at the same time, because I wanted to reduce   health inequality gaps from that age, and  that s really what inspired me to pursue a   career in nursing with more of a passion in  mental health nursing. And then after that,   I moved to eating disorders inpatient services.  Really wanted to work in CAMHS after that,   because I saw a lot of older adults with eating  disorders that didn t get the intervention when   they were younger, so moved to CAMHS for  that reason, and then I ve worked between   CAMHS inpatient services and CAMHS community  services as a Clinical Nurse Specialist [pause]. Beth   Cumber I think for me, I ve always been  really interested in research and, kind of,   why we do what we do in mental health care, and  I ve always wanted to be a part of exploring   that. And I went to work as a Teaching  Fellow at the University of Birmingham,   and during that time, I was really keen to get  involved in research and I then got told about   the PhD opportunity when it came up. So, it  s been quite based on opportunities for me   and, kind of, being in the right place  at the right time, but it has always been   something that since studying mental health  nursing, I ve wanted to be involved in. Jasmine Snowden Oh, and for me, what motivated  me to transition was the I was a Clinical Skills   Facilitator upon qualifying, so I would support  Student Nurses to learn their skills in mental   health nursing. Then I noticed there was an  underrepresentation of mental health nursing   skills as I was teaching them. So, they tend to be  more classroom-based, rather than actually having   someone, maybe like an actor, play a service user  and then, being able to interact in that way. So,   it was very different to the adult skills  that I noticed, and I also saw a greater   health and research gap between adult and  mental health nursing and really wanted to   move to academia to do a bit more research and  teach Mental Health Student Nurses good practice   where the research gaps are so vast between  the two, especially within workforce [pause]. Beth Cumber I think my experiences as a Mental  Health Nurse have meant that my teaching is   representative of, kind of, what s going on  in the clinical world. And I hope that that,   kind of, brings some relevance and brings  the theory and clinical work together for   nursing students when I have taught them. And  I suppose in terms of my research with my PhD,   the clinical experiences that  I have, have really, kind of,   driven my project and is why I m want to  cover what I m going to cover, because   of what I ve seen on the wards and what I  ve experienced working with young people. Jasmine Snowden And I m very  similar to Beth s situation, that,   like, you prepare them in for clinical practice.  So, a lot of the underpinning research is still   being developed and we want to be a part of that,  but also making sure that they re prepared for   what they re going to see in clinical practice,  so they re able to adapt better than they have   been previously. Cause there s been a lot of  feedback around resilience and people feeling   unprepared when they re qualified, so I feel  like that experience as a Mental Health Nurse,   you, kind of, instil your ethos into the  students that you re teaching [pause]. Beth   Cumber I think one of the main challenges for me  has been not wanting to lose my clinical skills,   and so, trying to, kind of, find the balance  between making sure that I still go and do   shifts at the hospital and work as a Mental  Health Nurse whilst studying for my PhD. I think   that s been quite a challenge in terms of, yeah,  making sure that I m giving enough time to both   and not losing my confidence in as a Mental  Health Nurse on the wards. And I suppose one   of the ways that I ve overcome that is by, kind  of, keeping quite close links with the people that   I used to work with and also, yeah, just trying  to stay boundaried in terms of allocating maybe   a day a week to the clinical work and then,  keeping the rest of the time for the PhD. Jasmine Snowden The challenges that I faced  was in creating boundaries within my role. So,   it was really hard to separate myself from  clinical practice and academic time. So,   what I had to do was implement the boundaries  in place with clinical practice and with the   workplace when I started in academia, to make sure  that I wasn t taking on too much, and ultimately,   felt like I wasn t providing the care I wanted to  as a result. So, although I had very good rapport   with families, I still didn t feel it was right  for me to have a caseload when I was working one   day a week, because they needed support and help  in between then and some people that were a bit   more available. But also, it meant I was thinking  about them during my time when I was teaching and   in academia. So, I managed to put boundaries in,  in place so I could do more time within roles such   as triage and assessment. So, where I could have  something that was really helpful, really helpful   for families, speed up that process, so they weren  t waiting as long, but I wasn t holding them for   a long time so that I could focus my time in  academia when I was working there [pause]. Beth Cumber I think probably the main change  for me has been having the breathing space to,   kind of, reflect on my clinical practice whilst  not working there full-time. And I think that   s helped me to, kind of, ground my own clinical  practice in theory. But yeah, also just have that   space to, kind of, reflect on why I m doing what  I m doing, and I think that helps you to, kind of,   yeah, be the Nurse that you really want to be.  Which sometimes can be really difficult when you   re working full-time in a really busy service  and things are, kind of, done a certain way,   maybe because they always have been, or because  of other pressures and, yeah, kind of, all that   busyness that s going on. So, yeah, I think that  s been the main thing is, kind of, having the time   to read around all of the literature and the great  research that s happening and, kind of, yeah,   having the breathing space to actually implement  that when I do go back to clinical practice. Jasmine Snowden Yeah, and I think for me,  it s been having oversight of the national   and international picture that I didn t  have when I was working in one Trust. So,   we d see excellent practice in one Trust, but  actually, it really broadened my outset into   what s going on in lots of different settings  and how we could implement that. Cause I still   try and keep my relationships with where  I was working, so I always send them,   kind of, the best practice across the country and  internationally, cause that s information that I   don t feel I ever received as a Clinician when I  was working full-time in clinical practice. So,   that s been the biggest thing that s changed  for me is having that better oversight of what   s going on everywhere, rather than in just  the one Trust that I was working in [pause]. Beth Cumber So, when I was working as a  Teaching Fellow, one of the things that   I was responsible for was contributing to  the development of case studies for teaching   skills sessions. And I suppose one thing that  I liked to do was represent CAMHS, cause often,   that s quite an under-represented field. So, you  ll have, you know, your Adult Nurses, your Child   Nurses and the Mental Health Nurses, and the  majority of Mental Health Nurses will go into   adult mental health nursing. So, I always tried  to make sure that we included some CAMHS scenarios   in our skills-based teaching, and I suppose just  basing them loosely on the experiences that I d   had. And I hope that because they were relatively  recent, that they were quite relevant and they   would be things that the nursing students would  come across. Yeah, and just trying to give them,   kind of, a varied picture of the things  that are happening within practice, yeah,   I think that was the main thing that I  tried to incorporate into my teaching. Jasmine Snowden And for mine it was a case-based  scenario, so, well the, I call them my care   studies now, but it s more around making sure  they can apply what they ve learnt in theory.   Because, you know, sitting in a lecture theatre  is all well and good, but actually, you know,   they need to apply the skills before they  go into clinical practice and work through   those ethical debates in a safe space.  And especially with a CAMHS background,   you ve got a lot of safeguarding, how do you  work with parents on top of working with the   young person, and how do you still respect the  young person as an individual? And it s all those,   kind of, ethics and debates that  you need to have in a safe space,   without having to directly work with families at  that time while you re learning. So, that s how   my experience as a Mental Health Nurse, kind of,  helps the students as they move forward [pause]. Beth Cumber   So, I suppose primarily, the research  project that I m working on is my PhD,   and I ve been lucky enough that that  s within my field. So, it s working   to evaluate a new CAMHS intervention in the West  Midlands and also planning a piece of research   looking at the experiences of children and young  people who ve been admitted into inpatient CAMHS   from residential care placements, which, kind  of, directly relates to my clinical experiences.   And I think that s really helped  to keep me motivated, because it,   yeah, it s definitely my area of interest and  where I would like to carry on working afterwards. Jasmine Snowden And then with mine, I ve done  a mix of different pieces, but I ve looked at   virtual reality and how to help with improve least  restrictive practice on a ward, so what s a good   example and a bad example of communication and  which will have an impact on mental health care   in general. But looking at how we communicate  with young people is extremely important   and also looked at that through the lens of  a child that or a young person that might be   autistic and how you d communicate in a different  way. And then, the workforce side of the project   is what I hope to do is to look at instant data  and skill mix to see if the ratios of staffing   on the ward and what type of qualifications they  have, have an impact on the incident data [pause]. Beth   Cumber So, I think the advice I would give  is to give it a go, basically. A lot of the   opportunities that I ve had through mental health  nursing and the, kind of, journey that I ve taken,   has just been by, kind of, going for  the opportunities that exist and also,   asking around to see what people are doing and  seeing what s interesting to you. So, kind of,   the initial way that I got involved with the  academic world and research was just by resit   reaching out to our Research Department to  seeing if I could just help out on any of   the research projects. So, it wasn t that I was  making the move from clinical practice straight   into academia. It was, kind of, feeling it out  to see if that was something that I would enjoy,   and it also helps you to, kind of, build  connections in that world, I think. I think maybe in terms of preparing, my probably  my top tip would be to set yourself realistic   goals. So, you know, if it is that you re  thinking about that move over to academia,   maybe saying, okay, for the next year, I m going  to try and be involved in some kind of research   project and see how that goes for me. Because I  think it can feel, kind of like, a huge goal and   a bit of out of reach sometimes, especially when  you think about getting to that PhD point and X,   Y and Z. So, yeah, I think setting yourself  small achievable goals would be my main tip. Jasmine Snowden And I would completely agree, and  not feeling intimidated, because there s lots of   people doing lots of amazing things, but all of  that takes time, years, and experience and it s   okay if you don t start off in that place.  Cause it s you know, it can be hard to get   funding and it s about you know, there s a lot  of criticism when you get papers back and that,   but that s just the natural nature of it. They  re not criticising you as a person. It s the high   standard that they hold you to, but it s if you  re new to it, like I said, it s shadowing people,   seeing how people review papers and how people  teach, so that you can get an idea of it before   starting, cause it can be quite difficult to start  without any experience or understanding [pause]. Beth   Cumber I think that providing more opportunities  for Mental Health Nurses to be involved in   academia without leaving the clinical world  would really help to strengthen that link.   So, giving people the opportunity to be  involved in research projects without,   you know, undertaking a whole PhD, or yeah,  having more, kind of, split roles between   academia and the clinical world, I think that  would really help. Also think just, kind of,   improving the collaboration. I think sometimes  we can get, kind of, wrapped up in our world of   universities or clinical practice and because  everything is so busy, but if people had the   space to then go and share what they re learning  in clinical practice with university students,   but also vice versa. If people doing research  could go into clinical practice and say, Actually,   I ve been reading these about this great practice  in your area, I d love to share with you what I   ve learnt and see if we can implement new  things, I think that would really help to,   kind of, bridge that gap between the  research world and the clinical world. Jasmine Snowden And it s giving more time  for those roles, because there s Research   and Development Teams in the UK in, usually  every Trust, but you re not encouraged to go   and look at those and see what they re  doing and have any input. So, it d be   lovely if people in clinical practice could be  allocated more time and, kind of, vice versa,   that we get more time in clinical practice so  that we can continue to build and maintain those   relationships over time, without having to, kind  of, push it into our current workload [pause]. Beth   Cumber I suppose my main goal is completing my  PhD, and I really hope that that project will help   shape future CAMHS services in terms of making  sure that the, kind of, voice of children in care   is represented in the literature. And in terms  of, kind of, future hopes and goals, I d love   to stay involved in the world of academia, but I  also am really keen to still work clinically. So,   I really hope that I ll have the opportunity  to continue with both in the future, yeah. Jasmine Snowden And my hope is to hopefully,  write new policies around inpatient Child and   Adolescent Mental Health Services and help  clinical practice to have the right skill mix,   or whatever that skill mix is, improve  on the evidence base that we ve got,   but also, but, like, there s still work  clinically. So, maybe in a research/Nurse   consultancy role would be my ideal, but I still  want to stay involved within academia [pause]. Jasmine Snowden   So, really, it s about pushing forward for mental  health nursing and what skills are will be more   developed for Mental Health Nurses than our  counterparts of Adult and Child Nurses. So cause   we respect the boundaries of what, kind of, we do  and don t know as Mental Health Nurses, so it s   really pushing forward for more developed skills  for cognitive behavioural therapy, dialectical   bilateral therapy, which are in the NMC standards,  but Adult and Child Nurses currently have to know   that as well, but really, they ll never use it.  So, it s actually protecting, kind of, what skills   are ours as Mental Health Nurses and develop them  further, but give the other fields their awareness   so we can break down the stigma and but also  keep our identity within mental health nursing. Beth Cumber Yeah, I think also just, like,  sharing what exists in mental health nursing Jasmine Snowden Hmmm. Beth Cumber and what roles there are and  opportunities. I think it s really important,   as well, to, kind of, yeah,  highlight what we do, as well. Jasmine Snowden Hmmm hmm.