Dr Clara Faria Hello, welcome to the  In Conversation podcast series for the   Association for Child and Adolescent Mental  Health, or ACAMH for short. I'm Clara Faria,   an ACAMH Young Person Ambassador, and in today's  episode, I have the pleasure to talk to Dr Jaspar   Khawaja and Dr Christopher Bagley. Dr Khawaja  is a practising Educational Psychologist based   in a local authority in London and Dr Christopher  Bagley is an Educational Psychologist and Director   of Research at States of Mind. In addition, he  also lectures at the Institute of Education in   UCL. Today, we will be discussing their paper,  "Breaking the Silence Critical Discussion of   a Youth Participatory Action Research  Project," published in JCPP Advances. Welcome, Dr Khawaja and Dr Bagley. Thank  you so much for being here today. Can   you each start with an introduction,  giving a short overview of what you do? Dr Jaspar Khawaja So, hi, I'm Jaspar and  I'm an Educational Psychologist in a local   authority now in inner city London. So, my  role in my current job varies massively,   but I'm, kind of, linked to a range of school  settings, from nursery up to secondary school,   and I'll often be supporting those settings with  a range of issues from, kind of, supporting at   the individual level with individual pupils, to  thinking about the systemic practices of school or   providing them with training on a range of topics.  And the research that we'll be discussing today,   so "Breaking the Silence," I was involved with  States of Mind, working with Chris, during my   doctorate, which was a few years ago now, and this  provided the, kind of, framework for my thesis. Dr Chris Bagley Hi, everyone, Chris Bagley. I'm  also an Educational Psychologist. I started off   as a Teacher a little while ago now and I've been  an Ed Psych for about ten years, and I think the   most relevant elements to talk about today are  around my work with an organisation called States   of Mind. And we're a social enterprise that  started in 2017/2018. What we've been doing,   as an organisation, is using our understanding and  our skills as Psychologists to work with a range   of different partners, most notably young people  and educators and other academics, to really try   and identify what are the social determinates of  young people's mental health and wellbeing? What   are the systemic influences on that? And  one of the things that's come up, in this   study and all the other work we've done, is the  school system being a really predominant factor. And our work's therefore been directed at  thinking about how do we work with young   people to co-construct different ways of being  and acting in the world, through research and   other different approaches, to try and change  cultures and systems to better support them?   Which is probably a nice way of segueing into  this project, because this is one - been one of   our main projects and I think possibly the  one that's had the most impact nationally. Dr Clara Faria That sounds fantastic and I'm  really looking forward to discussing the project   you mentioned. So, in your paper, you discuss  "youth participatory action research" since   its conception to a real-world case study, your  project, "Breaking the Silence." I imagine part   of our audience is not familiarised with this  concept, so can you tell our audience a little   bit about youth participatory action research  and also, about the importance behind it? Dr Jaspar Khawaja So, Chris and I were  saying, kind of, initially, I suppose,   we thought of the approach as a way of conducting  research, but the more we think about it now,   it's an approach to working with young people. And  it's an idea, I suppose, of addressing real-world   issues in a democratic manner and it differs  from typical research in a few main ways. So,   firstly, where often, during typical research,  you might have subjects who you ask questions to,   in YPAR, you are working alongside those  groups as co-researchers. So, for us,   that was having a group of young people who  became co-researchers, who were then involved   throughout the research process. So, we worked  alongside them to create research questions,   to think about what they wanted the methodology  to be. We supported them to conduct interviews   and focus groups and create a survey and then,  you support them to analyse those findings. And then, that leads onto, I  suppose the other unique part of it,   which is that action is built into  the process. So, unlike most research,   where it stops at the point of findings and  then you might publicise the findings, in YPAR,   action is a crucial element. So, you, kind of,  allow time to then think with young people about   where they want the research to go. How can  it challenge systems or policies that exist? One other key point that's different from typical  research is where most research values, kind of,   notions of objectivity and trying to be  neutral, YPAR starts from a position of   acknowledging that injustices exist in the world  and that inequality exists. And it, kind of,   sees the purpose of research to illuminate those,  kind of, injustices or those inequalities and then   work with the groups that are experiencing  them to challenge them and to change them. Dr Chris Bagley I think one of the things to  add, or just build upon what Jaspar said there,   is this idea that young people when they  take part in action research like this,   they're active participants and they're not  passive. And that's one of the things that's   extremely powerful about the approach, is  that it constructs young people as powerful,   solution-oriented human beings who are able to,  and did in this case, think together about what   things are impacted upon them in the world, what  it might look like in an alternative culture   or system, thinking specifically here about the  education system and school evaluation, and then,   what do you do about that? That's the thing, the  bit - the action phase that's really important. And the final thing to add to what Jaspar said  there, really, is the gravitas that young people   leave with having done a piece of work like  this, because they've had the opportunity for an   extended period of time. We work with them, each  cohort, for over a year. Some of them are still   involved now after many years, and that gives  them an enormous depth of knowledge and personal   insight and self-awareness, but also, a real  sense of comprehension about how the world works,   both politically and educationally, and what you  can do as a person within those frameworks to   exact change. Which is something that we would  argue, and I think most Educators would argue,   is completely lacking in a school  system that's driven by standards. Dr Clara Faria To pick up on that, we  know that mental health of children and   young people is a major issue in the  UK at the moment. We have recent data,   such as the National Surveys, pointing to an  increase in the number of young people with   a probable mental health disorder. And given  this scenario, and as you mentioned, Chris,   the school is a major factor, many people  and Researchers are seeking to develop   school-based approaches to address those  mental health concerns. And my question is,   how do you think YPAR can strengthen those  approaches? Also, how can we encourage other   Researchers to use this methodology which  encourages critical thinking in youth? Dr Jaspar Khawaja Something that came out  of our project, and I know this, kind of,   working in school, is that there is a lot more  talk about children's mental health at the moment   and what that means. And there's increasingly,  kind of, interventions that are trying to be   developed in schools. But one of the things  that was really illuminated working with our,   kind of, co-researchers throughout a series  of projects was that a lot of the, I suppose,   deep-rooted practices of the school system  are some of the most harmful impacts. So,   they spoke about, like, particularly in  the UK, the obsession with testing that   happens from a very young age and keeps  going through. Exclusions, and really   rigid behaviour policies and then, kind  of, accountability measures like Ofsted,   that end up comparing schools. Competition is  built in throughout, and we, kind of, know,   as Psychologists, that this is not a particularly  psychologically healthy way or system. So, I suppose one of the things that YPAR  enabled is to start from this really broad   perspective of saying, like, what are all the  issues that are going on? Rather than just,   kind of, trying to create an intervention  within a school, actually, can we challenge   some of these deep-rooted practices? Then, I  think in terms of encouraging people to use it,   how do you make this quite tangible for other  people to use? 'Cause I think we were finding   it to be such a, like, a really empowering thing  for the young people, but also for ourselves, but   it is so difficult to even explain maybe what the  thing is. So, one thing that I did do during my   thesis is try and create a toolkit for people that  want to conduct this type of research. So, that's   one of our aims moving forward, to continue to  support other people to do this type of research. Dr Chris Bagley Yeah, I think that's all very  legitimate points, and I think before you've   even got to those points, though, you've got  to be able to adopt a worldview that assumes   that young people can think, they can problem  solve, they can co-construct solutions. They're   intelligent enough to do research, respond  to it, analyse and create actions. That's   not assumed at the moment within the school  system. But I think what action research does   is rather than what we have in the norm, which  is working on children, this works on systems. Dr Clara Faria In your paper, you discuss a lot  "Breaking the Silence," which is one of your many   projects that brought youth alongside as  co-researchers. Can you tell us a little   bit more about the project? And reading  your paper, I was particularly fascinated   by how the project endured several cycles and  Phase II, where you led a super interesting   mixed method study around the impact of  schools on the mental health of youth. Dr Chris Bagley It started in 2018 when there was  an Ofsted consultation came out, and we thought,   well, we need to start asking young people what's  important for them in terms of how schooling is   evaluated. So, we did some focus groups across  a number of schools in the London borough, and   what kept coming up over and over and over again  is how the way the school system is structured is   having a fundamental impact on young people's  mental health and wellbeing, often negatively.   And the young people could see, and we were quite  struck by this, but cause we weren't sure how much   they would know, but they could see when we had  discussions with them, that the accountability   structures, and Ofsted in particular,  was having a significant impact on that. So, at the end of Phase I in those focus groups,   group of young people sent a letter to  Head of Ofsted at the time. Jaspar came in,   in Phase II and III. Phase II was really about  young people coming together, building on the   letter from Phase I and then going, "Well, we  need to find out more about what it is that's   problematic for young people here in terms of  their mental health and wellbeing. And they   created a survey and some interviews, which Jaspar  then did a really good job of analysing with the   young people and to some extent, myself. So,  maybe you can pick up there, Jaspar and... Dr Jaspar Khawaja Yeah, reflecting back,  Phase II felt like it was a real deep dive   into this relationship between the school  system and young people's mental health. So,   we worked with, I think it was nine youth  researchers at that point, and they, yeah,   they created a survey and then, we did some focus  groups' opinion on what was coming out of those.   And what I found really interesting was the  extent to which things like stress was just   coming out in enormous numbers, of how stressful  young people were finding the school system,   but particularly exams. That was really strong.  There was real nuance in a lot of answers,   as well, with a lot of them reflecting on whether  the school system was the main factor or just a   contributing factor to this trend that we were  seeing in increasing distress in young people. And then, I think, like you touched  upon, Chris, some of the insight they   were giving about competition and comparison  that they felt within their school experience,   and the lack of time they had to explore their  own identity or their own interests, came,   again, across really strongly. So, Phase II felt  like we had this pretty comprehensive picture of   what a lot of young people were saying, and  obviously, it wasn't a nationwide survey. So,   then we built upon that for Phase III, which  was working with a new group of young people   to explore the school evaluation system,  so Ofsted that we have in this country. And then, I suppose we had this broad task  and interesting, sort of, starting point from   our side of things, which would be, like, what  would young people create as a school evaluation   framework if they had the chance to? So, we  worked with them over the course of a year,   with, sort of, weekly one and a half hour  sessions. It was across two colleges and all   the meetings were online, but we, kind of, went  through exploring with them what was currently   in place, their experiences of education. Then we  supported them to conduct our own research, where   they again, did a survey. They spoke to, then,  Headteachers, Teachers, ex-Ofsted Inspectors. And that, for me, was one of the, kind  of, best bits of the whole project,   was watching these co-researchers, who were,  sort of, 17 at the time, sometimes interviewing   ex-Ofsted Inspectors or Headteachers, who had so  much experience and there were these fascinating   interactions and conversations that were taking  place. Not always different perspectives,   but I suppose they saw things in a very  different way, from where they were positioned.   And then, from all that, we then worked with  the young people to produce their own school   evaluation framework, which then, kind  of, Chris continued into Phase IV. So,   maybe, Chris, you can talk a little  bit about what came out of it. Dr Chris Bagley And at the end of that year, the  young people had come up with a set of areas for   evaluation. So, things like Teacher autonomy was  a really interesting one that came up, that if you   don't have Teacher autonomy, you can't have young  person autonomy. And the young people were making   really strong links between the need for Teachers  to be able to have some control over what they   do and have some freedom. And things like young  person mental health was something they perceived   needed to be measured, etc. So, there were  different measures, but it was all in the paper,   obviously, around what young people  found, after working on this for a year,   were the really important, clear evaluative areas.  And a lot of that differed quite significantly   from Ofsted, which is very curriculum focused,  as anyone knows who's interacted with Ofsted. It's also important to mention that it wasn't  easy, Jaspar, was it, to do this? Doing work   in this way is extremely difficult. It's much  more difficult than teaching a set curriculum,   because it's messy. Human beings  are not straightforward. Everyone   has different opinions. It takes a lot  of discussion, lots of back and forth,   constantly checking with the young people  to figure out whether we've conceptualised   the themes that are emerging in a way that  makes sense. It's very complicated, messy,   democratic work, that's what democracy is. So,  one of our perceptions is, if you want to have   a democratic world and you want to have young  people who know how to co-produce things together,   without just going into binaries and fighting  with one another, you have to practice it. So, Phase IV followed that, so that's a new cohort  of young people from two schools in London. And   what they had to do, and I think this is probably  the most difficult bit, once you've got the areas   to evaluate, how the hell do you do it? How do  you evaluate young person's mental health? How   do you evaluate Teacher autonomy? So, we spent  another year, myself and a really great Teacher,   and some young people, working through that and  we ended up exploring all sorts of things. So,   numerous mental health measures, for example, lots  of measures around Teacher autonomy that are out   there in the literature, lots of other measures  around things like life satisfaction, school   satisfaction. So, a real slow process of working  with the young people and then them checking   with peers and other Teachers around whether  or not those evaluative measures make sense. So, by the end of that phase, we had something  that the young people named the "Review for   Progress and Development," which is very  much based around continuous self-evaluation,   with schools, Teachers and young people evaluating  themselves alongside partner schools in the local   area. Because they argued, having spoke to all  the different professionals, etc., that actually,   local evaluation is much more powerful than  external centralised evaluation by Ofsted   Inspectors who come in for two days and don't  know the school. They argued that the best way to   evaluate is do it yourself. Assume that Teachers  and young people want their school to be good. The latest phase, which was, kind of, finished  at the beginning of this academic year, really,   was Phase V, and that was a really powerful  phase, because the young people had already   made a documentary with an artist. That  was when Jaspar was involved a couple of   years ago. They'd already written papers  and articles for different media. They'd   been in The Guardian, etc. So, they'd done the  really interesting marketing and action phase,   where they'd put the work out there into the  world, but there was then a Parliamentary group,   raised by Sir Jim Knight, who's a Lord, called  "Beyond Ofsted." And the young people played a   really significant role in formulating  the document that came out of that,   which was then presented to Central  Government when Labour came into office. So, that was probably my proudest moment, is we  ve got these young people who'd been involved   in the project for years, who were able to go  to Parliament and really assertively challenge   some of the Lords who were in that room  around the extent to which young people have   not been involved at all in co-constructing school  evaluation approaches. And it hasn't created wide,   sweeping change, but that's not how  political change works, is it? It tends   to be very slow, gradual and there's lots  of knockbacks before any change happens. But I think if we were to pick up one thing  that's really powerful about the project,   it's the fact that after that extended  period of time, with different cohorts of   young people taking part in various phases,  it did end with an outcome where the young   people were engaging directly with the main  authority in the nation around constructing   new ways of conceptualising Ofsted,  alongside University College London,   House of Lords, and numerous other Teachers  who were involved in that particular project. Dr Clara Faria After this overview of "Breaking  the Silence," and thank you so much for that,   Chris, I was wondering about, also, other results.  And another thing I was really curious about is   that I imagine that going into schools like this  and having the space and the time to co-construct   research with young people is something that  not all schools are going to be open to. And   you mentioned that those structural factors  were less of an issue because your team had   spent a long time developing this relationship  with the schools invested in the project. So,   I was also wondering if there is any advice  you would give Researchers that want to   work with action research regarding  this aspect of relationship building? Dr Jaspar Khawaja I suppose there's two ways of  looking at it and I can speak to the actual - so,   for my thesis, and some of that's covered in our  paper that's come out, I was trying to explore   some of the things that you've just spoken about.  What was the impact on the co-researchers? So,   a few months after we'd finished the project,  I had some interviews with them to ask them   about their experiences. One thing that did  come out was that quite a few of them said   it was really 'empowering'. And digging  into that, they said that the fact that   they actually could make decisions and that they  had control over the direction of the project,   that was one of the main things that they'd  said they'd never really experienced before. And I suppose the other core thing that they'd  spoke about that was empowering was the breadth   of the topic, so the idea that we were, in  their minds, trusting them to create something   completely new and to challenge a government body  like Ofsted. So, that was really new and it was   really nice to hear the stories that a few of them  were saying of, like, taking with them some of   the skills they'd developed. So, one of them was  talking about they always go to their Headteacher   and now challenge them if they think they've put  a policy in place and they haven't consulted young   people. And then, as well, the fact during that  year, I think, over half of them had volunteered   their time to develop this documentary and that  was, like, again, I think, another hour/hour   and a half on, like, a Thursday evening. And  I was thinking about this reviewing it and I   was thinking, like, when I was 17, I definitely  wouldn't of been using my time in that way. Not   that I had the chance to, but that definitely  something interesting was happening here, where   they felt they had control or ownership and they  did want to challenge something and make a change. In terms of like we spoke about, the structural  factors, or how can more people - I suppose we   talk about either Researchers or Teachers or  other practitioners, working with young people,   how can they implement or attempt to do this type  of research? I think a good starting point is if   you have the worldview that we've been talking  about, I think the next step is looking for   opportunities. So, it's definitely been harder  for me being, like, a practising Educational   Psychologist, the last couple of years, but I  have been able to squeeze out a little action   research project with a group of young people  who were at risk of exclusion. Which was a   lot more challenging doing it by myself  and with students who were much younger,   actually, and potentially, going through  quite a traumatising experience of school   at that point. But the fact that I am always  looking for little opportunities like that,   and there's definitely ways you can bring  in some of the principles at the start. So, one of the things I'll often say to schools,  if I am discussing with them what their priorities   are, or if they've got questions about an aspect  of school. So, another school was talking about   their behavioural policy and they were saying they  weren't sure about what direction to take it and   where to go with it. I, kind of, raised, "Well,  have you discussed any of this with students at   your school?" And that just enabled this  way in to start having some focus groups   with young people who were having different  relationships with the school sanction system,   I suppose, which just started to move things  in a very different direction. And it gathers a   completely different side of school than I think  is, like, absolutely important, but you often   don't get there when adults in schools are often  within their own circles and feel like they have   to solely make the decisions. But it can actually  take a bit of pressure away from them, as well. Chris, if you want to come in. Dr Chris Bagley One of the things that we get  stuck in, generally speaking, as human beings,   is narratives, don't we, about what things are  and what things can be. And we're in a very   interesting phase at the moment, as a culture,  that's pretty recent. You know, human beings have   been around for hundreds of thousands of years  and we're in a phase at the moment where we've   constructed together what constitutes education  in a way that doesn't allow young people ever,   that's not an exaggeration, to run their own  project, build things together, create knowledge.   Young people are never positioned as people who  can create knowledge. They're only positioned as   people who need to receive knowledge. And it was  unbelievably striking, reading Jaspar's paper,   to hear the young people say that. To say  that they'd never had a chance to do anything,   for 17 years of their lives in a school context,  that allowed them to take control of their   own learning and ownership and to actually  co-construct something on which they can act. I guess what I'm trying to tap into, though, is  the idea that I think there's an appetite out   there among educators to work in different ways.  There's a real feeling of stuckness out there.   If you look at Teacher wellbeing surveys,  it's not going very well, and we've got a   book approved now to write about the States of  Mind approach, which is directed at Teachers,   and parents, of course, can take a huge role  in their education, as well. And there are lots   of parents out there who are move - taking  their children out of school, aren't they,   and educating in things like learning communities?  Home education is rising exponentially. So, I think what we're trying to tap into  here is this idea that education is what you   imagine it can be and you have to be able  to be flexible and change your worldview,   take a risk and try and do something that's  contrary to the status quo, if we want young   people's mental health and wellbeing needs to  be met within a education framework. 'Cause   at the moment, we now have mountains of data to  demonstrate that schooling, in its current form,   is not working and it's actually causing an  enormous amount of harm to a lot of people. There are some educators and schools out there  who are trying to work in a more, shall we say,   consent-based or rights-based, or self-directed  learning way. Those phrases are coming more into   the ether now. They're becoming more commonplace.  And I think what we've tried to do here through   our work is just try and establish a really  clear way that that can work and demonstrate   some outcomes. And that's the last thing I  wanted to mention, Clara, is the outcomes,   because what we have at the moment is a  schooling ontology that assumes outcomes are   a very specific thing. They need to be very  contained within a materialist's ontology,   right? So, it's either an exam score or  a behaviour score or a progress level. And what this project does,  and action research does,   and what we're trying to do at States of  Mind generally, is say that, actually,   starting a journey without a clear destination  in mind doesn't ruin the journey. Actually,   it makes the journey far more interesting.  It allows you to take fascinating routes   that you hadn't necessarily considered you  were going to take. And in a school context,   it can allow young people to pursue ideas, develop  and analyse data and build solutions together in a   way that creates much more powerful outcomes.  This can't happen unless you can imagine it   can happen and I think this is just part of  the much wider movement, this paper, Jaspar,   isn't it, in terms of presenting an alternative  way of conceptualising what education can be? Dr Clara Faria Thank you so much  for these and I know a good chunk   of our listeners are Teachers and  I hope that well, your experience   can inspire them to think of - about things in  a different way. And I also wanted to ask you,   'cause I remember you mentioned in the beginning  that parts of the project can be messy,   as it will be, because it's a totally new way to  conceptualise research, and I just wanted to ask   you, can you tell us a little bit more about  the challenges you faced during the Breaking   the Silence project? I'm particularly interested  in the analysis phase, 'cause I am 100% with you   on the fact that young people can, and should, be  taking ownership of things, but I know some parts   of research can be more technical, as well. And I  was just wondering if - how did you approach that,   if they received any training for the analysis  bit, and how did you keep them engaged? Dr Jaspar Khawaja It was really  difficult, actually. Phase III,   what we tried to do is the quantitative  analysis was generally okay, actually,   because what we could do from surveys is just  present to them, I suppose, the percentages of   people that said what. And then, we, kind of, gave  them time to look that over, discuss it in small   groups and then feed back to us what they thought  was going on. The qualitative was really hard. So,   I suppose within this type of research and one  of the things I reflected on in the paper is you,   kind of, have to make decisions about what your  priorities are. So, because we were prioritising   action, it, kind of, meant, I suppose, you lose  some of the quality within the analysis, or you   lose some of the time that you might give to it,  particularly if it was just a sole researcher. So, what we tried to do is, when they were  conducting interviews or focus groups,   they would often do that in pairs and ask  the questions, and I would also be in those   interviews or focus groups, as well. Following  that, what some of them would do is while the   other one was asking questions, they would be,  sort of, taking down notes of what the answers   were. We would then have a little short session  at the end of that to discuss what we thought the   core things coming out of it were. Then, in our  next group session, those young people would feed   back to the rest of the group what they thought  the central parts of what people were saying were,   but also, what was most relevant for them in terms  of creating their own evaluation framework. So,   it was really centred on that action,  what was meaningful for them at that time. And also, in between sessions, I would give  the interview or focus group another listen   and then try and draw out, in a really quick -  I mean, this isn't obviously what you would be   doing if you were conducting research by yourself,  but just a really brief analysis, again, just to   check whether we had, kind of, picked up across  all the core things that had come out of it. So,   that was, like, a brief way of doing it, but I  know there are other Researchers that I've come   across since who have created, sort of, frameworks  for doing thematic analysis alongside young people   or co-researchers. So, it's a shame we, kind of,  hadn't - or we probably didn't have the time to   fully do it, as well, within our project, but  those kind of tools are out there, as well. In terms of some of the other challenges, one  of the really interesting things I thought   was this tension between when we, as the adult  facilitators, needed to lead on things and when   we could, I suppose, let the youth researchers  completely take over or do things more thoroughly   themselves. So, it was also interesting, kind  of, in the interviews after with young people,   what they thought about that process.  So, some of them, really interestingly,   said there were certain times when they thought  they should've been leading more, that Chris and   I were still having too much control. Which was  fascinating for us, 'cause we had gone into it,   you know, with this mentality that we were  talking about, of trying to give this power away,   but then hearing back from them that there were  still times we're not doing it, that they thought   we should be, kind of, opens your mind up to how,  maybe, ingrained some of these practices are. In general, I think one of the core messages that  I took out of it, upon reflection, was that you've   got to try and be as transparent as possible  throughout the process. So, we used a lot of   quick surveys through, like, Mentimeter, to check  in with them and check they were happy with the   direction that things were going in, or check that  they were happy with the research questions that   we'd developed. But what you sometimes get into  through that process is like Chris talked about,   it gets really messy. So, what do you do when  three co-researchers say they're not happy,   but the rest of them say they are? So, we tried  to be really accommodating of that and sometimes,   I would go off in a, like, a separate  little group with those young people   to try and fine tune the bits that they were  uncomfortable with. But it does mean, ultimately,   it comes back to this question of time and that  you don't know where it's going to go and you   don't know how much time you're going to need to  do - to have for different parts of the project. So, it is really hard to structure, and what  Chris and I ended up doing is we, in between   our weekly sessions, we would have a catch-up, try  and draw together where the core elements were,   think about what the young people said where they  wanted to go next, and put together a, kind of,   rough schedule for the next session. But sometimes  it would get to a point where we were like, "Okay,   we're halfway through the year, we really need  to start, kind of, talking to some people now,   or arranging the interviews," which brings with it  loads of challenges. But Chris, you can add more. Dr Chris Bagley It's much more difficult  than traditional status quo teaching,   and it's constant deliberation, Jaspar,  isn't it? Where you're, every session,   trying to make sure that you're not manoeuvring  what you perceive to be the themes that are   emerging from the conversations in  the direction that you've chosen,   rather than participants have. And also, the  idea is that we're all co-researchers together,   so keeping in mind that those, sort of,  decision-making processes need to always be   at the front of your mind is a challenge. You  know, you're - it's not something that we're   habituated to doing through our own schooling,  or even our own educations at university level,   is it? It's often quite hierarchical, and  for me, that was the greatest challenge. And the only other challenge, I think, there,  is just around people's capacity to actually   understand what that process looks like, even  in their own minds, before you start. So,   if I'm a classroom Teacher, for example,  I'm very aware that there's not really a   coherent framework or set of training  protocols to deliver action research,   is there? You know, so it's - it would take  some time for an educator wishing to do this   to really engage with the approach and try and  understand what the challenges are going to be,   and then take it from there. But I  think just to flip that on its head,   I'm sure Jaspar would agree that when Teachers do  take part in this work and they are able to pull   it off, and we've worked with a lot of Teachers  throughout the last, sort of, five or six years,   it's really transformative for them, because  they're then working in a way that they probably   came into the profession wishing to do, which  is to work co-productively with young people. So, yeah, I think it's really important   to understand the challenges,  though, before you go into it. Dr Clara Faria Well, thank you so much  for such an interesting discussion today,   and to wrap up, can you tell us a little  bit more about what are your hopes for   the future regarding action research, and I  think, well, the current educational system,   as those things are very interlinked? Where  would you like to see the field going? Dr Jaspar Khawaja I guess for me as a starting  point, and it has been really nice since doing   the research when people have reached out to me  and said they're interested in doing some action   research, but I think just this idea that it is  possible, as a starting point. And just seeing   more and more people do it I think would be  quite a powerful thing, just in different   ways. To really build this network where we can  learn from each other, and that's something,   like, I learnt trying to do it last year in a  different context, with much less time, is it,   kind of, flags up all these challenges further.  And often, projects raise more questions,   or you can raise more insight, so having  a group of people that were all, kind of,   passionate about this type of work, or using these  principles, would be such a great starting point. And I think seeing more people  actually do it, or use these ideas,   starts to create more possibilities, I  think. When you see it in the fringes,   it starts to make it more possible and more and  more people can start to see that some of these   ideas can work and be really empowering. So,  that's, kind of, where I'd like to see things   move, say, in the near future, just more  people using it, more people thinking it's   possible and from there, hopefully more  opportunities, more possibilities arise. Dr Chris Bagley Just to build on that, I think  I really see action research with young people   as part of a broader scheme of change in the  education and mental health and research climate.   We've had, for a number of years now, this idea  of 'pupil voice', which only really became common   parlance in the 1980s and before that, there was  no sense whatsoever that young people should take   any part in their education, other than to listen,  retain and do exams. So, we're gradually moving,   I think, as a society, into a place where  there's a growing recognition that if you   want young people to get to 18-years-old, or  however old they are when they leave school,   able to take on problems, deeply comprehend  them and do something really meaningful,   they have to practise it. And if they never  practise it, of course, by the time they   get to university, and we hear this often in  university from other University Lecturers,   they don't know how to think critically very  well because they haven't had any practice. But   I think for me, it's part of a scheme in terms of  revitalising our understanding of what people are   and what mental health is and that's a core  element of the journal that it's gone into,   isn't it? And also, thinking more about the  academic literature and how to align it. What's absolutely clear is if you  use an action research approach,   or similar, that's far more fruitful in  terms of building the mental health and   wellbeing of human beings who are subject  to it, because they're active participants,   so they have autonomy. They can engage with the  project in ways that make them feel competent. So,   for example, some young people opted to talk about  this work at various different conferences, both   nationally and internationally. Some of the young  people much preferred to be in the background,   not even to do - to appear on the documentary,  but some of those young people were extremely   good at formulating stuff, Jaspar, weren't  they, at writing things down? I'm thinking   of a couple of them in my mind who are really  good at different elements of the project. So, you can, sort of, help young people to  direct their energies in ways that make them   feel competent and intelligent. It builds an  enormous sense of belonging, and what we know   about the literature on belongingness, is Allen  & Colleagues led a paper into the world recently   that suggested "one in four young people in  schools don't perceive belonging." And if you   look at what that means, that's potentially  catastrophic for mental health and wellbeing   of young people if they don't perceive that they  belong in the school environment. If you take a,   sort of, action research approach, you build  a really strong sense of relatedness within   that group. It's safe, it's secure, it's  a place where people are really building   things together in a really meaningful way  and it's a very authentic way of practising. So, I think it's part of understanding about  how education can genuinely become democratic   and responsive to young people, but I think it can  also be part of different ways of being and acting   in the education context that really promote young  people's mental health and wellbeing in ways that   are currently not occurring. And that might be  an interesting, sort of, way to round it off. Dr Clara Faria Well, on that note, thank you so  much, Jaspar, and thank you so much, Chris, for   sharing your research and your vision with us. And  for more details, both on Dr Khawaja and Dr Bagley   work, you can visit the ACAMH website, which is  www.acamh.org, and also their websites, which will   be linked in the page of this podcast. Do keep an  eye out for other podcasts in the In Conversation   series and don't forget to follow us on your  preferred streaming platform, let us know if   you enjoy the podcast, with a rating or a review,  and do share with your friends and colleagues.