Dr Jane Gilmour Welcome to “Inside the Teen  Brain.” This ACAMH series will leave you   inspired by best practice and armed with tips  to transform your work. I’m Dr Jane Gilmour,   and I have a special interest in the teenage  brain. From puberty to about the age of 25,   the brain is in a unique state, with core drives  including identity, novelty, risk, peers, respect,   autonomy and intense emotions. In discussion  with leading CAMHS professionals, each episode   will explore these developmental drives and during  our conversation, we answer three big questions,   “What’s the background?” “So  what?” and “Now what?” Today,   we look inside the teen brain and explore digital  technology. This episode is called “Screenagers.” Let’s go to our first big question, “What does  the literature tell us?” All of us need connection   to thrive, but the adolescent need for it is  greater. We know too that they’re drawn to risk   and novelty. The internet serves up all these and  in abundance. Orben’s superb review considers the   potential potency of digital experiences  for young people. For example, it offers   a social inclusion metric, public to peers,  calibrated by the number of likes on a post.   But enrichment opportunities live in the same  space as the potential for harm. Highly sensitive   content algorithms could offer a supportive,  custom-made community or skew identity formation. We record this episode in a week where  news headlines include phone bans,   and stark warnings of technoference in child  development. But the neutral or positive links   with social media use don’t typically make the  mainstream narratives, where negative attention   biases thrive. For example, loneliness is  particularly pernicious to the adolescent brain,   and data shown social networks can buffer feelings  of isolation. All the benefits of face-to-face   friendships exist online too, according to Yau and  Reich’s review. Digital fun still counts as fun.   Further, the protective role  of digital social connection is   illustrated by Metherell. During the  pandemic, young people without access   had disproportionately poorer mental health,  but improved when their access was restored. Many studies ask if the rise in reported  adolescent mental health conditions and screentime   are related. However, despite a plethora of data,  albeit with significant methodological challenges,   there are few convincing causal patterns.  It brings to mind the experience of our old   friend Winnie the Pooh, who complained the more he  looked, the more he couldn’t find it. Typically,   the direction of the effect is unclear, or there  are conflicting results. In instances where a link   between screentime and poorer mental health has  emerged, the explanatory power is very small,   much smaller than poverty or bullying, for  example. There are perhaps stronger data   showing that excessive screen use, and  more specifically, the time lost to it,   rather than the content itself, may be  problematic. For instance, if you’re scrolling,   you’re neither exercising nor sleeping,  both of which are enriching and protective. Przybylski and Weinstein’s paper somewhat resolves  the tension between harm and benefit. For young   people in the community, they describe the  “digital Goldilocks principle,” moderate use   is beneficial, but excessive use or complete  abstention are linked to poorer outcomes.   Future policy must consider the nuance in  different populations and their experiences of   digital content. Emerging literature explores both  individual and intraindividual experiences. Gender   and age effects have been reviewed in the past,  but future inved – investigations may involve   culture, personality type, pre-existing mental  health and solitary versus shared consumption.   So, how can we sum up the literature  status? It’s complicated [pause]. Now, we turn to our second question and  ask, “So what?” We could get lost in this   literature, so we’re very lucky to have  an expert guide to help us navigate it.   Pete Etchells is Professor of Psychology and  Science Communication at Bath Spa University,   with a special interest in the effects of digital  technology. As Author of the award-winning book,   “Unlocked The Real Science of Screen Time,” and  “Lost in a Good Game,” in addition to numerous   publications in the New Scientist, Guardian,  Observer, New York Times, Telegraph, and more,   Pete brings balance and nuance into the mainstream  and academic discussion about teens and tech. So,   welcome, Peter, we have a lot to cover. Professor Peter Etchells Thank you for having me. Dr Jane Gilmour It’s so – we are so grateful,   because you are sitting atop so much data and  evidence, so I want to really crack through a   variety of questions. We may not cover  everything, but let’s start, shall we? Professor Peter Etchells Yeah,  let’s go for it. We can try our best. Dr Jane Gilmour That’s all we can  do. So, your book, “Unlocked,” is an   invaluable overview of the literature, and  in it you write very generously about your   own mental health and your thoughts of the  contribution, or not, that screen use made   to it. So, what’s the evidence that digital  technology causes mental health disorders? Professor Peter Etchells Oh, that’s a question,   isn’t it? It’s a very emotive  question, as well, ‘cause I think… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm hmm. Professor Peter Etchells …everybody has –  everybody’s got their own opinions on this,   and they are, in many ways informed opinions,  because we all have experience of using digital   tech. We all are very aware of our mental  health, and we see – because we talk about   this in the news and in our day-to-day life so  much, I think it’s a very salient thing, right? Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells We’re very much aware  of what’s going on around us in terms of people   on their phones, kids on their phones, people  in cafés on tablets and things like that. So,   it’s really – it’s a really tricky one to go,  “Okay, well, here’s what the evidence says, here’s   what the science says,” because, very often – and  the long and short of it is the science says it’s,   very unhelpfully, that it’s complicated, right?  That you have some studies which show negative   effects, some studies which show positive effects,  a lot of studies which don’t really show anything,   and that’s not very helpful for people. When you  hold that up to what we literally see in front of   our eyes, it’s very difficult to go, “Well, why  – you know, the – why bother with the evidence,   then?” But I think, in many ways, that’s  the reason why it’s really important to   interrogate the evidence. We’ve got to  be really careful in this space that   what we see in front of us is not necessarily  representative of what happens to everybody,   and what happens to people in different situations  to our own. And that, actually, this is where the   power of evidence in scientific research comes to  the fore, in that if we can look at this in a much   broader way, then we do get to that deeper  understanding, hopefully. Hopefully, I say. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells The problem there is  that I think digital technology research is not   in a great way at the minute. It’s always been a  difficult area to do research in. Fundamentally,   what we’re talking about here is something that  people use in a very automatic way a lot of   their day, and it’s something that’s not easily  defined. So, we talk about ‘screentime’ a lot,   we used to. I don’t think we talk about  screentime as much now, but I have seen it   come back into the discussions recently, and we  talk about screentime because it’s an easy thing   to get our heads around and it’s an easy thing to  measure. So, Scientists like this because of that,   you can ask people, “How much time  have you spent on your phone?” or,   “How much time have you spent on social  media?” or, “How much time have you spent   playing videogames in the past week,” or “month?”  Or whatever you’re interested in, and you get a… Dr Jane Gilmour And… Professor Peter Etchells …number out of it. Dr Jane Gilmour …well, I think… Professor Peter Etchells And… Dr Jane Gilmour …it’s interesting,   though, that that recollection is distinctly  low tech in a hi-tech question, isn’t it… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …the recollection of how  much time have I spent on my screen? But I… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …interrupted.  Keep going, ‘cause this is… Professor Peter Etchells No, no, no… Dr Jane Gilmour …the nugget of where we’re… Professor Peter Etchells …that’s… Dr Jane Gilmour …headed. Professor Peter Etchells But it’s a great  point though, because the reason that we ask   those questions is because they’re easy and they  seem straightforward, and it seems as though it   gives you a very easily digestible answer, you  literally get a number, and because we’ve not got   much else to go off. So, one of the things that  I talk about in the book is the problem of that,   sort of, self-report data. You know, I can ask  you, “How much time did you spend on Instagram   last Tuesday?” and you can give me a number.  Whether that number is – has any bearing on   reality or not is a completely different question,  and actually, there are some lines of research   which show this, that it doesn’t really – that  we’re pretty bad at these sorts of self-report   measures. But we’re stuck, because that’s the  only kind of data that we can get a hold of. There is a vast treasure trove of really useful  data here, even in that very simplistic term,   around how much time is somebody spending on  a particular platform, that’s held by the big   tech companies, that’s held by the platforms, that  it is currently very difficult to get a hold of,   if not impossible to get a hold of, as a  Researcher. So, we’re really stuck at the minute,   and this is why the research is – is one  of the reasons why the research literature   as a whole is pretty shaky, is that we’re stuck.  Because we keep having to rely on asking people,   essentially, for their perceptions of how  much time they spend on a particular platform,   and that’s not very useful  for a variety of reasons. So, that’s, I’d say, the big problem.  The conversation has shifted, obviously,   over the past year or so. We’re not  really talking about screentime anymore,   we’re talking about smartphone use and  social media use, but I’d say a lot of   the issues that I talk about in the book around  screentime are directly applicable to talking   about social media. Social media as a concept  is very vague, right? It’s the obvious things,   like Instagram and TikTok and X and WhatsApp and  things like that, but it’s more esoteric things.   It’s things like Discord, maybe it’s also things  like Google Classroom. I would argue under a lot   of definitions that you see of social media,  things like text messaging come under that… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …really, in terms  of strict definitions. And this might sound   like a really nerdy thing to say, a really,  kind of, almost boring deflection in a way,   but it’s actually really important.  It’s really important for the research   literature. It’s important for thinking  about how we regulate this space,   as well. And I’ll give you two examples of why  I think that’s important, very practical ones. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Peter Etchells Australia has enacted a  law which is going to see social media banned for   under 16-year-olds, that’s going to come into  effect in December this year. That happened   very quickly. That legislation happened in  a very fast window of time, shockingly fast,   in many ways. I know it had been brewing for  a while, but when things actually started off,   we were talking about weeks, basically.  And there was very little consultation from   stakeholder groups and Academics and youth  participation groups and things like that,   and part and parcel of that problem was that  there weren’t any clear definitions at one   point of what they meant by ‘social media’. And  at one point, I remember seeing a news story   about how Snapchat were basically, saying, “Well,  we were ex – we’re exempt from this law because   we’re a messenger service, we’re not a social  media platform.” Now, that’s ludicrous, right? Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Peter Etchells Of  course Snapchat’s social media,   and of course Snapchat is the type of platform  that you would presumably want to be targeting   with a ban like that, but that’s why  the definition’s important, because… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …you don’t want to  regulate the wrong things, as it were. And then   there’s another example of – and we’ll maybe talk  a bit more about this in a bit, around unintended   consequences of getting the definitions wrong.  This is a slightly different thing, this is not   about teen mental health or wellbeing issues  or anything like that, but in the US there were   moves to ban TikTok recently. So, the publisher  of TikTok, a company called ByteDance, took a   pre-emptive move and – on, I think it was the  19th of January, so Sunday the 19th of January,   it was a Sunday, they switched TikTok off in the  US. Now, I think that was a bit of a PR stunt… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …because they  switched it on about 20 hours later,   because the new President was going to come  in and sort everything for them. Nevertheless,   it effectively gets banned, right, for a short  period of time in the US. What is relatively less   known is that ByteDance are also the publisher  of a really popular mobile videogame called   Marvel Snap, which is, like, a Marvel-based  card game, collectible card game-type thing.   When ByteDance switched off TikTok, because it was  due to a law around apps with, kind of, foreign   investors and foreign developers needing to be  banned, and the term there was ‘app’, not ‘social   media platform’, ByteDance switched off everything  that they have in the US, and that includes Marvel   Snap, but nobody realised it. So, nobody saw  this coming. The actual developers of Marvel   Snap didn’t realise this was going to happen,  so they were taken by surprise, and it took… Dr Jane Gilmour It’s the evils of  screentime, except for that screentime. Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour Except for the ones that – yeah. Professor Peter Etchells So, it took  a few days for the game to come back,   and I think it’s back now, but there are a few –  still a few problems with it, and the Developers   are looking for a new publisher to make sure this  doesn’t happen again. But that’s the territory   we’re in with this lack of understanding of what  it is that we’re worried about, and specifically,   what we need to regulate or understand, in terms  of the research. Those are regulation examples,   but you basically see the same thing in the  research literature, right? That the – part of   the reason why you see a bunch of studies that  show positive effects of pick your screentime,   and a bunch of studies that show negative  effects, and a whole bunch of studies in   the middle that don’t really show anything, is  that everybody’s measuring different things,   but we’re calling it ‘screentime’ as  a whole, or ‘social media’ as a whole. And, actually, that’s also true  on the other side of the coin,   if you’re interested in mental health, mental  wellbeing, well, that’s depression, anxiety,   self-esteem, body image disorder, schizophrenia.  Those are just the top few things that I can   think of research papers that I’ve looked at  recently on screentime effects. But it’s also   positive things as well, like, you know,  actual, you know, hedonic or eudaimonic … Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …wellbeing. They  are all considered under the general banner   of ‘mental wellbeing’. So, when you start asking  questions, like, “What does the research say about   the effects of screentime on mental health?”  You, kind of, realise very quickly it’s – a)   it’s a bit of a meaningless question to ask, b)  we’re not doing a good job of it research wise,   and c) we’re probably missing the actual  questions we should be asking, if we… Dr Jane Gilmour So, what…? Professor Peter Etchells …want  to understand what’s going on. Dr Jane Gilmour …How would  you interrogate the data,   if you could? What questions would you ask of it? Professor Peter Etchells So, we’ve got some lines  of evidence in the literature to suggest that,   yeah, digital tech impacts people’s  mental health. I don’t think that’s a   controversial or shocking or interesting  thing to say, because most stuff does. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm hmm. Professor Peter Etchells So, yeah, there are  associations there, they’re very small. What   that says to me is that if you’re trying to engage  in a process where, you know, you look at broad   level population data and you go, “Okay, something  happened in 2012, or 2010, or 2015,” and if you   look at these measures of teenage mental health,  things look as though they started to get worse. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells And  you’ve got an inflection point   somewhere around the early 2010s.  What caused that? What one big   thing caused that? And I think that’s  the wrong way of thinking about it. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells Because what you end you  doing is getting into a situation where somebody   goes, “Well, it’s the phones, and here’s the  research that supports that,” and then somebody   comes along and says, “No, it’s not, because  this is why that research is naff. Maybe it’s   the global financial crisis.” And somebody else  comes along and says, “Well, it’s – no – it’s not   that because of this.” And you end up with this,  like, laundry list of things that might impact   teenage mental health. You, kind of, go through  it one-by-one, and say, “Is it this? Hmmm, maybe,   but probably not that.” And you, kind of,  leave digital tech ‘til the end, and go, “Well,   everything else we’ve accounted for, it must be  digital tech,” ‘cause it’s so ubiquitous. That’s   the debate that we’re in, the public debate at  the minute, and I think it’s just the wrong way… Dr Jane Gilmour And… Professor Peter Etchells …of thinking about it. Dr Jane Gilmour …I guess, there is  also a danger that the, you know,   the capacity to switch off or dichotomously  erase a mobile phone in a, you know, a young   person’s hand is tempting as an intervention,  whereas it’s much more likely to be complex… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …a variety of variables  interacting, and individual, you know,   experiences of the same content will  be different, and so on, and so on. Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour And I think you raise   a really interesting question about the  ideas of definition and banning. You know,   this is not to say that legislation  should and could be applied,   but there’s also something very tempting  about the forbidden fruit, if you like… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …of content, and that… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …it is so  available in our society,   but perhaps not to a particular  age group, suggests that… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …there will be immediate   temptations, if you like, towards  exploring unlegislated content,   because it’s outside the legislation.  So, there’s so much there. We are really… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …as my granny  would say, “in quite a muddle.” Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour I think it’s… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …there’s a lot to do. I’m  going to move onto another question though,   because I want to hear your thoughts on this idea.  So, we’re – we move to the, sort of, content of   the smartphone particularly, and the attention  grabbing nature of a smartphone means that we now   have a cohort of young people with poor attention  sta – spans, discuss. What are your views? Professor Peter Etchells  That’s another one, isn’t it? Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells It’s the one that  comes up a lot, and particularly, you know,   obviously, certainly in the UK, and – but I  think in quite a few countries at the minute,   this is particularly focused around the context  of smartphone bans in schools. You know,   Teachers are feeling – reporting that, you know,  kids are very distracted in class, phones are the   cause of that, but it’s also causing all sorts  of other problems in the playground and beyond. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells And this is – that’s  one bit of a – perhaps a wider concern that we   all have at the minute, that we all feel this,  I think we all feel pulled six ways from centre. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells But it’s  really hard sometimes, a lot of the time,   to concentrate on stuff, and it’s really easy  to be distracted by something else, your phone… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah, exactly. Professor Peter Etchells …is the obvious thing.  And that has morphed over the past decade into   this specific concern that it’s actually because  of digital technology that our attention spans   are eroding. I don’t think that is actually  what’s happening. So, I’ve not seen any clear   signals in the research literature to  suggest that, you know, quantitively,   our attention spans are declining in a systematic  way, we’re just not seeing that. I’d caveat that   by saying there’s not that much research to  look into this. And I think there’s some really,   kind of, cool studies actually that you could  do straight off the bat, where you look at,   you know, if you take a particular type of  attentional task in cognitive psychology,   and look at all the papers that have  been published over the ten/15 years,   the past ten/15 years, to see, you know, whether  people’s attentional abilities in a task is   declining over time, then that’d give you a fairly  good signal, and as far as I can tell, nobody’s   really done that. I think there’s a couple of  studies where they’ve not really found that much. I think, you know – and I’ve seen  claims along the lines of, you know,   “smartphones are,” sort of, “taking 20% of  our collective brainpower,” if that was true,   society would not be functioning.  You know, that is a tremendous… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …statement  to make without any clear evidence,   and I think we probably wouldn’t have –  be having this conversation if that was… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Peter Etchells …true, it would be… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Peter Etchells …so obvious.  I think the problem – and this, kind of,   goes back to that definition thing  that we were talking earlier,   around how you measure this sort of stuff.  The problem is that it feels that way. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm hmm. Professor Peter Etchells So, why does it  feel that way? Well, there – I think there   are multiple reasons for that. So, one  is we are told that this is happening,   constantly. So, we’ve been told for the past ten  years that our attention spans are now shorter   than that of a goldfish, right? It’s a, sort  of, very common trope that people talk about,   and you see variations on it. So, my favourite  one was a news story a few years ago where the   National Basketball Association in the US,  the NBA, the considering reducing the length   of time of basketball games because millennials  have an attention span shorter than a goldfish,   right? It’s just all complete nonsense, but it’s  a zombie statistic. You know, multiple people… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Peter Etchells …including myself,  have tried to figure out where that statistic   comes from. It doesn’t come from science.  It seems to come from a marketing company,   around ten years ago, and they’ve  published data on – ‘data’ on that,   every year. Even if it were the case that our  attention spans were, like, eight seconds now,   I should say and goldfish are, like, nine  seconds or something like that – that’s not true,   goldfish don’t have a short attention span like  that, it doesn’t seem to be declining. So, that’s… Dr Jane Gilmour Well… Professor Peter Etchells Everything about that  statement is wrong, but it’s a very easy one to,   kind of, latch onto, and if you, yourself, are  feeling distracted in your day-to-day life,   then the – this world view gets built up that  this is something that’s happening to you. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells The other thing that  I’ll say very quickly, that – why I think this   is happening – I mean happening, and why it feels  – you know, it certainly is the case, when you’re   working on something and you’re stressed and your  phone pings off, you’ll go and look at your phone… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …and then you’ll  go and look at something else on your phone,   and the next thing you know,  you’ve wasted half an hour,   when you didn’t want to. And I think it’s  that that people worry about and it’s that,   sort of, attention grabbing nature that we really  worry about. Part of the reason that I think that   happens is because, you know, these forms of  tech, like our phones and things like that,   are vastly useful machines, but they  never really came with a training manual,   right? You know, we pick up a phone – we  buy a phone, first time we get a smartphone,   nobody really tells you how to use it or how that  use can go wrong, or how to use it in an efficient   or an effective way. You just, kind of, figure  it out. You know, nobody really had a reason   to download their first social media platform  in 2010 or whatever. We just, kind of, did it,   because that’s what everybody else was doing,  and we figure out how to use it along the way. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells Some people do  that really well and thrive, other people   don’t do that very well and struggle, and for  some people, yeah, you get really horrific   outcomes from that. So, this, kind of, goes back  to that question we were talking about earlier,   which is, you know, when you’re asking  questions like, “What is the impact of   digital technology on X?” whether that’s mental  health or attention or whatever you worry about,   I think that’s the wrong question, because  the answer will always be, “It will have   some effect.” Maybe not much, but that effect  depends on other factors and other contexts. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells So, I think the  better question, in all of these scenarios,   is the ‘why’ question, Why is it that some people  really thrive online and really get on with using   digital tech? You know, they’re able to have a  phone in front of them and not get distracted   when they’ve – when they’re doing work. They don’t  demonstrate problematic behaviours, all of those   sorts of things. And why is it that in seemingly  similar cases other people really struggle? Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells And  I think that’s true of adults,   as well of – as children and young people. Dr Jane Gilmour And even consume  the same content in different ways. Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour So, the same content  delivered in the same platform at the   same time of day will be considered and  con – you know, consumed in different ways,   or even those intraindividual  differences. So, the same person… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …on a different day will… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …experience it. And so these are  the questions of the literature. You know, we are… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …somewhat, and partly because  of the problems with producing high quality   literature, we, you know, we are so far behind  the contemporary experience of young people,   and our data follows sadly behind, but  there’s so much to do. Which I want to… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …sort of, turn  specifically to young people,   ‘cause, of course, our series thinks  particularly about adolescents. Now,   we know the teenage brain orientates towards  novelty and peers. So, I always say to families,   you know, “A phone stands for friends  and trends.” So, we might hypothesise   that it’s particularly attractive to teens.  Is there any evidence for this, do you think? Professor Peter Etchells Yeah,  I think so, yeah, absolutely.   I think it would be silly to say that, you know,   there are no effects here and that there’s nothing  to worry about. That’s – I don’t think anybody… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …is saying that. I think  what we’re trying to figure out at the minute is   for what groups of adolescents and young people,  in what situations and one con – what contexts   are there perhaps periods where they’re maybe more  sensitive to either a particular form of digital   tech or moving onto social media and things like  that? So, there are some studies. there was a big   study that came out, well, probably two, three  years ago now, probably about 2022, it was led by   Amy Orben, at Cambridge University, that tried to  look at this. So, taking, like, really big sets of   data from literally, like – I think it was, like,  nearly 100,000 participants. That was across the   lifespan, so from the age of about ten to about  80 years old, and looking at – so, basically,   the self-reported social media use and very  simply, things like life satisfaction ratings. And what you see is that over the course of the  lifespan you see peaks and troughs in that. So,   you see places where social media seems  to be really strongly associated with   changes in life satisfaction and then other  periods where it’s not. And when you look at   teenagers, in particular, there do seem  to be these windows of sensitivity,   where there’s negative relationships between –  so increased social media use and decreased life   satisfaction. Now, where that gets a little  bit complicated is that you see – you know,   in terms of what’s affecting what, you, kind  of, see it in both directions in a way. So,   you see some cases where, you know, you take a  measure of social media use, let’s say, age 14,   I can’t remember the specific ages, but, like,  one age, that seems to predict later changes in   life satisfaction. It predicts a decrease  in life satisfaction about a year later.   But you see the opposite, as well. So, you see  cases where teenagers are reporting decreases   in life satisfaction that predicts  later increases in social media use. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells And you see slight  variations depending on where that specific   window is, depending on whether you’re looking  at males versus females, as well, and obviously   across different ages. Now, I think that goes  back to that idea we were talking about before,   in terms of maybe it’s – the question is  not so much, “What predicts what?” or,   “What causes what?” but, “Why? Why do we see this?  What’s going on here?” And one of the ways that I   try to think about this is that it’s impossible to  take a phone or take social media as though it’s,   like, a black boc – box unit in somebody’s life,  and remove it and see what the impact of that is,   really. The answer is it will have an impact  on people’s mental health, on children’s mental   health, positively and negatively, but it sits  within an ecosystem of other factors, that all   interact with each other, to then, ultimately,  have an impact on mental health, good or bad. So, there’s some research,  for example, that shows that   you can predict the types of negative  experiences that different groups of   children will experience if you know what  their pre-existing vulnerabilities are. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm hmm. Professor Peter Etchells Again, I talk about this  a lot in the book, this is work by Adrienne Katz   and Aiman El Asam at Kingston University. If you  look at children with caring responsibilities,   as a, sort of, an in-depth example, they – you  can – so they’re more likely to be victims of   cyberscams and identif – online identify theft  and things like that. Why is that the case? So,   it’s not just whether they have a phone or not, or  whether they have access to social media or not,   it’s other things. So, if you look holistically  at what’s going on in those sorts of situations,   so children who’ve got caring responsibilities,   they’re at home more than their peers, because  they’ve got those caring responsibilities. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells They – that means  that they have more opportunity to be online   for greater parts of the day, perhaps  in an unsupervised way. They might also   be dealing with their own physical and  mental health vulnerabilities, as well,   and they also are more likely to  be in situations where a, sort of,   educational scaffolding around how to  stay safe online is not there for them. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm hmm. Professor Peter Etchells You know, they might  miss days at school where it’s Safer Internet Day,   so they don’t get that training. They maybe  don’t have conversations at home around what   they’re doing online, because of  the relationships that they have   and those responsibilities that they have.  And all of those sorts of things together,   you put them all together, and that increases  the likelihood that they’ll get an email saying,   “Click this link and you’ll win £100,000,”  and they’ll click on it, and – yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour So, it – so, the digital  forum, it’s where it plays out, but it’s not… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …really the  problem, as it were. So, the… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …problem is the lack  of scaffolding, the lack of – you know,   perhaps being in charge of financial finances… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …you know, lack of supervision,   and so on and so on. That’s the  problem, not the screen, as it were. Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour And the question is, you know,   does it distract us from thinking about  how to address the why? And I think… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …you know, you’re describing  that so eloquently. You know, the compl – this   is such complicated data and it has such enormous  repercussions, but, you know, it mustn’t distract   us from, you know, the explanatory variables are  actually, to some degree, much more important   and have further repercussions for our, you  know, life trajectories and so on. It’s a… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …really nicely described example,  I think that’s fantastic. I wondered if we could   think about – you know, sort of, thinking about  these vulnerable young people that you described,   for example, carers, you know, we do know that  for some of these vulnerable young people there   could be risks. You know, for many young people in  the community, as you say, they thrive, or there   are neutral effects, but for vulnerable young  populations, they’re – the crucible of the digital   forum can be, you know, pretty powerful. So, how  do we addre – this is an impossible question,   Pete, but how can we support these populations?  Because often they’re outside clinical practice   or they’re outside support services, and yet, they  are the ones that perhaps are most vulnerable,   or at least, their vulnerabilities will play  out in the digital forum. So, what can we do… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …to support them? Professor Peter Etchells It’s a fantastic  question that, and it’s obviously a really   important and timely one. I think, you know,  we’re not doing as much as we could there.   I honestly – I don’t have a magic fix.  I don’t think there is one. I think in   terms of where we need to start though, is in  really taking the heat out of the conversation,   the conversations that we’re having at the  minute. So, you know, literally globally,   we’re having conversations around banning  social media for under 16-year-olds,   or under – pick your age, banning phones  in schools, banning children from having   smartphones. And you look at different countries  and you see different rules and laws in place. You know, I think it’s France, there are proposals  that – I think – I can’t remember the – quite the   ages, but I think it’s children under the age of  11 no phones at all, children under the age of 13   no internet enabled phones. So, we’re thinking  about things always in terms of restriction and   banning these things. What that message sends  is that this is not something that we should be   talking about, and I’ve see – particularly  I’ve seen this particularly in the context   of smartphones in schools. People will use the  phrase, you know, “We want it to be out of sight   and out of mind so that they can focus on their  studies.” I absolutely agree with that, yeah,   you should be focusing on studies and developing  social relationships at school. But that message   that this is something that we don’t talk  about, I think is a really unhelpful one. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells And I’m probably a  little bit of a hypocrite here, because I – before   I started writing “Unlocked,” you know, we all  have bad habits and bad relationships with our   tech, right, we’re all trying to figure it out,  and I do really distinctly remember a few times,   sort of, at the start of writing the book,  where, my daughter was about three then,   or when this was happening, I think, that,  you know, I’d be on my phone in the playroom,   and I didn’t need to be, ‘cause I was  stressed out about work. ‘Cause I’m always   stressed out about work, and I was probably  checking an email when I didn’t need to be,   and she’d look at me, and she’d see  me on my phone, and she’d say, “Daddy,   what are you doing?” And I’d go, “Woah, nothing,”  turn my phone off and put it in my pocket. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells That is the wrong… Dr Jane Gilmour Immediately. Professor Peter Etchells …message. I’ve… Dr Jane Gilmour Oh, it’s so fabulously… Professor Peter Etchells That’s the wrong… Dr Jane Gilmour …attractive now. Professor Peter Etchells Yeah,  what message does that send? Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm hmm. Professor Peter Etchells A) that this  is something really interesting that… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …grabs our attention,   that’s maybe more interesting  than me at the minute… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …and it’s   something that we don’t talk about and  we hide. It’s very personal to ourselves,   we don’t share it with  people. It’s just the wrong… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Peter Etchells …behaviour to model.  And I try – you know, I still am on my phone   sometimes when I shouldn’t be, because it’s  a really difficult habit to break. But what   I try and do in those situations is turn it  around and model a better outcome to that. So,   you know, if she asks me what am I doing on my  phone, I’ll talk – I’ll show her and I’ll talk   to her, and I’ll say things like, “Do you know  what, I’m on the pho – I’m on my phone, I’m on   my emails at the minute, and I don’t want to be,  I don’t need to be. I’m just a bit stressed out   ‘cause of this thing that’s happening at work,”  or whatever. And, you know, she’s bored by that,   she’s not interested in all that sort of stuff,  but it’s not the content of what I’m saying,   it’s what I’m doing, which is talking  about it and being open and saying that   it’s okay to talk about these things. And  I don’t think we do that enough broad… Dr Jane Gilmour I couldn’t… Professor Peter Etchells …broadly speaking. Dr Jane Gilmour I couldn’t agree more. I – ‘cause  I do think, you know, we talk about literacy,   quite rightly, all the time, I’m – you know, and  I am a huge advocate for other types of literacy.   So, emotionally literacy, we can only learn  it when we talk about it and do it every day   embedded in the family, and exactly the same way  with that digital literacy. You know, what you’re… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …describing there is an  opportunity to say, “Oh, I’m drawn towards it,   you know, I probably shouldn’t. Here’s what I’m  going to do to resolve it. Here’s how I’m going to   repair that rupture,” if you like, and it’s so  important. You’re so generous, Pete, when you talk   about these scenarios, ‘cause, a) it brings it  to life and other people will immediately relate,   but, you know, you have the capacity to describe  that experience and, you know, echo and,   what’s the word? Really illustrate so much in  a little scenario, because you’re teaching her   the beginnings of digital literacy, and  it can never start too soon. In exactly   the same way as we learn our letters, in  exactly the same way as we learn our moods,   we’re also learning about how to manage  the digital world, ‘cause it’s round us… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …so we better figure it out. Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour So, I think that’s really great.  Sorry, I interrupted you. You might want to… Professor Peter Etchells No, no, it’s fine. Dr Jane Gilmour …complete that. Professor Peter Etchells It’s okay. No, I think  – thank you for saying that. It’s – I think,   you know, the main lesson there is  that we’re all learning this, right? Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells You know, that we –  and we’ve got a lot to learn. I’ve spoken a lot   about the need to focus more perhaps on digital  literacy and resiliency skills building than out   and out bans. And I think I’ve been misunderstood  by people sometimes, that when I say that, when   I say, “I don’t think the evidence supports a ban  in schools,” for instance, “it’s not going to fix   the things that you want it to fix, we need to be  focusing more on building digital literacy skills   from an early age,” I think sometimes people read  that as me saying, it’s fine to give kids from a   very early age a phone, and figure it out… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Peter Etchells …and that’s absolutely… Dr Jane Gilmour No. Professor Peter Etchells …it’s not what I’m  saying, at all, it’s absolutely not. You know,   I’m very much in the camp of I don’t – you know,  my daughter’s five, she doesn’t have a phone. I   don’t see the need for her to have a phone for  quite some time and I don’t want her to have   one until I think she’s in a better place than  I ever was in terms of being able to handle it.   But those skills, you can build from an early age  without even using technology. You know, it’s… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells …little things like  being open – you know, I struggle with, like,   talking about emotions and those sorts of things,  ‘cause, you know, I came from a family where you   don’t talk about those sorts of things. So,  it’s taken me a very long time, and I’m still   not there, to be able to do that more comfortably.  But being a father has really helped with that,   because I can see those situations that I  remember being in when I was young that I   know that I didn’t get the response that I needed  from my parents that would’ve helped. I can see   what that is now. So, I think just little things  like saying, you know, when my daughter’s had a   bad day at school, just saying, “You know,  I’m here. If you want to talk about this,   I’m always here. Even if it’s something  that you’re worried that you’ve done wrong,   I want to know. You’re not going to be  in trouble for telling me that, ever.” And I think that’s really important in the  tech space. We have some evidence that shows   that when you create these sorts of situations,  and I don’t mean this in a guilt tripping way,   I think, you know, we all struggle with  this, but when we inadvertently create   these situations where we’ve actually got  quite an authoritarian situation going on,   like, you know, “No videogames console  in your bedroom because I say so,   end of,” or, “No phones in bedroom,” or  whatever it is, they generate arguments,   right? And those are the things that we’re  struggling with, as parents, those pinch points,   particularly in the evenings, around ending  use or putting boundaries around use. When you do that in an authoritarian way – there  was a great study a few years ago that asked,   like, 1,000 UK teenagers, “Okay, here’s a scenario  where a parent’s trying to enact a tech rule,   and they’re being really authoritarian  about it. How likely are you to stick to   the rule?” And they say, “Not very.” If you  give them more, what we call an “autonomy   supportive situation” – and that’s not being  a permissive parent or anything like that,   it’s still putting in clear expectations, but  you’re co-creating that with them. You’re saying,   “Look, this is why I want you to not have a  games console in your room. Why do you want   one in there? Well, let’s talk about that, and  let’s see how you feel about doing this and,   you know, we are going to do this, but I  want to get you on board with it,” basically,   and doing those sorts of things. And you ask kids,  “How likely are you to break the rules?” and they   still say they’re going to break the rules,  because that’s what teenagers are, they’re   rule breaking machines, right? It’s actually  quite an important part of being a teenager… Dr Jane Gilmour Absolutely… Professor Peter Etchells …pushing boundaries. Dr Jane Gilmour …that’s how you  discover something new. You know… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …if you  don’t do what you’re told,   you might discover something new. Yes, that’s… Professor Peter Etchells The key difference is  that in the authoritarian, sort of, condition,   teenagers are much more likely to report  that they’re going to hide their tech use   from their parents and caregivers, and that’s the  scenario that we need to avoid. That’s where the   risk lies because you don’t know what they’re  doing, you don’t know how they’re doing it,   and when something goes wrong for them,  they don’t want to come to you, or they’re   reluctant to come to you, because it will involve  disclosing a breaking of the rules, as a first… Dr Jane Gilmour Exactly. Professor Peter Etchells …thing. So, it’s  not just, “Something bad’s happened to me   that’s really upset me, or really harmed me,”  but “I’ve gone against what you told me to do,   so I know what you’re going to say. You’re going  to say, “I told you so,” and it’s going to create   an argument.” And that’s the situation that  you want to avoid. And again, this is not… Dr Jane Gilmour And I love the way you – sorry,   but I love the way you say, “When  something goes wrong,” because it’s… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …so important.  It’s a bit like saying,   “When somebody offers you alcohol, what are you… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …going to  do?” It’s not – you know,   so you’re assuming that this will happen,  because mistakes happen. “They will… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …happen, you will see some  content, you will do something that we haven’t   discussed, this is going to happen, so how are  we going to deal with this?” Looking at us… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …together. So, really important  nuance in the way that you’re using the language,   it’s fantastic. And actually, one of  the greatest compliments, I guess,   as a parent that we could ever have, or indeed,  you know, a Mental Health Worker, a Teacher,   anybody supporting a young person, is that  we get to be privy to a mistake. You know,   if a young person says, “This happened to me,” you  take that opportunity with both hands, ‘cause it’s   a chance to figure out what’s going to happen and  a chance to strengthen your relationship, because… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …figuring that  out by yourself is unlikely   to be a good experience and certainly not  a learning experience. Very important. Professor Peter Etchells It’s really  hard, it’s really hard, though. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Peter Etchells You know, I  had it with my daughter a few weeks ago,   that she was really struggling to get  to sleep and she got really upset, and,   you know, I went into her bedroom and I said  – you know, saying what was up, and she said,   you know, “I did something bad  today, something went wrong.”   And in that – I could feel myself panicking  in that moment, because I was like, oh my God,   this is one of those moments where you can really  screw it up if you say the wrong things. And,   you know, she – I can’t remember what it was that  she’d done, but she was really upset about it. I think she’d like hit another child or something,  ‘cause she’s got frustrated, and she knows not   to do that and she knows that’s not right,  and I – me saying, “You’ve done something   wrong, you know, it’s terrible,” doesn’t help. She  already knows that; that’s why she was upset. But   trying to use moments like that, that have nothing  to do with being on social media or being on the   internet, but just to create a space where you  go to them, “You know, thank you for telling me,   and I’m sorry that this happened. It sounds  like you’ve had a really tough day. How do we   figure out a different way of dealing with that  situation for you when it comes along next time?” Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells It’s those sorts of  skills and opportunities that will help them in   their online space. And I really feel that – so  I should say, none of this – I’m not saying here   that we shouldn’t have rules, or anything like  that. Of course we should have rules. It’s just   how we, kind of, explain them and negotiate them  I think is really important. I get this general   sense in the public discussions around social  media and smartphones and things like that,   is that, you know, it’s very heated, people  feel as though there’s a real urgency   to do something now, and to do something  severe, because we’ve all been terrified. And there are some absolutely awful things  that happen. Nobody is saying that they’re not,   and nobody’s saying that there aren’t real harms  online, and nobody’s saying in this space that   the tech companies are, you know, they’re  fine. They absolutely need to be doing more,   that’s going to take time, and there are things  that we can do in the meantime individually to   make things better. But I really get this  sense that because of all of this stuff,   it’s almost like we’re trying  to protect kids from everything,   and that’s where the ban comes from, right?  You know, if they don’t have a phone,   then the bad things online aren’t going to  happen them, because they don’t have a phone. And I find this a really uncomfortable thing  to say, particularly as a parent, but I think   we have to accept and face the reality that our  job, as parents and caregivers, isn’t to bubble   wrap kids and protect them from every bad thing  that ever happens, because they don’t develop any   resiliency if they do that. The world is a really  tough place, there are horrible things out there.   They are going to come across difficulties and  things that find – they find uncomfortable,   and things that potentially harm them. What  they need when they face those scenarios   is the resiliency to weather them and the  support networks to help them get through. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm hmm. Professor Peter Etchells I think   you see that in the literature around digital  technology, that, you know, that question of,   why do some people – why do some children thrive  online and others struggle? It’s to do with things   like the building blocks of the education to  know that when something bad does come their way,   they know how to weather it, they know  how to talk to people and talk it through,   so that the harm is not as extreme as it  could be and doesn’t lead to further harm. Dr Jane Gilmour Well, the good  relationship is the prism through   the experience, you know, and it will either… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …it will go one trajectory or  another. And the confidence to be able to come   and say, “This happened,” because one of the  things about – is about the solitary nature,   if you like, of some of the consumption. So… Professor Peter Etchells Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …as a young person,  I need to proactively come and say,   “This happened,” or, “I’m not sure  about that,” and so, there is a,   sort of – there’s more momentum required for the  young person, rather than, let’s say, you know,   watching a shared experience of something that  was potentially traumatic, because you’re… Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …around the event and  you can, you know, translate and dive   in. But you’re talking about the power of those  relationships and it’s such an important point. Professor Peter Etchells Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour I think we should turn  and ask to our final “Now what?” question,   and this is – again, I’m asking  a lot of tough questions, but   you’ve raised a lot of questions here that  I think are very pertinent. Because we know   that involving young people in tech  decisions, you’ve raised this already,   is much more likely to increase our success.  Now, whether that’s a, you know, a national   policy or a family guideline, you’ve talked very  clearly about the best ways to engage people. So,   what is your top tip for engaging young people,  whether that’s research or family guidelines? Professor Peter Etchells It might sound  like a really obvious, almost patronising,   one, but it’s talking, talking to kids, that  – you know, I’ve been in various fora where   we’ve talked about the state of research,  with Researchers from all around the world,   and the most useful ones that I’ve been in of ones  – are ones that have got youth representatives   in there. And you ask them what they think,  and they come up with blindingly good ideas   for doing research, really insightful comments.  And their voice is not really being heard in the   public debates at the minute, and when it is,  I think it’s happening in a very leading way,   as well. I think we always have to be careful  about who’s asking the questions of them   and how those questions are being constructed. And  very often, when the youth voice is being used,   it’s, essentially, as a soundbite  to support somebody’s point of view. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Peter Etchells And I think that does  them a tremendous disservice, I think. You know,   they have a lot invested in this discussion, in  this debate. Digital technology is not going away. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells What we need to  do is support them so that they use it,   like I said earlier, use it better than we ever  did, right? And nobody’s quite sure what that   looks like at the minute. that’s okay, but we need  to get better at figuring that out more quickly. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Peter Etchells So,  co-designing projects with them,   co-designing rules and regulations with them, not  just so that you hear their voice in those rules,   or whatever it is you’re talking about, but then  they’ve got buy-in. They’ve got a vested interest   in those things working out. You know, not just,  like, asking them what sorts of research questions   do they want to know the answers to? But bringing  them into the research process. There are some   studies that they’re not quite off the ground  yet, they are in their very early stages,   but I’m really excited about, because  what they’re thinking about is,   how do we – one of the big struggles we’ve  always got is we don’t have data from the   tech companies to answer a lot of these  questions, so we rely on self-report. But   there is something else that we can do, which  is that we can ask people to donate their data. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm hmm. Professor Peter Etchells That’s not easy, there  are lots of, kind of, legal and privacy issues   around that, but it’s not impossible. And I think  doing that, as well, so thinking about engaging   young people, thinking about what data they  give out there to the world, what data they own,   what data they can donate to research, and how  they do that in a participatory way, I think there   are lots of areas to explore around those sorts  of questions that I think would be really useful. Dr Jane Gilmour We’ve got so much to do and  so little time. I think we should bring our   episode to an end, but I’m so delighted that  we’ve had your expertise. Nuance and balance   is what I hope for, and nuance and balance  is what we got. So, it just remains for me   to thank you, Professor Etchells, for a  wonderful episode, many thanks, indeed. Professor Peter Etchells Thank you for having me.