Dr Jane Gilmour Welcome to “Inside the Teen  Brain.” This ACAMH series will leave you   inspired by best practice and armed with tips  to transform your work. I’m Dr Jane Gilmour,   and I have a special interest in the teenage  brain. From puberty to about the age of 25,   the brain is in a unique state, with core  drives including identity, novelty, risk,   peers, respect, autonomy, and intense emotions.  In discussion with leading CAMHS professionals,   each episode will explore one of these  developmental drives, and answer three   big questions, what’s the background?  So what? And now what? Today, we look   inside the teen brain and examine identity.  This episode is called “Just Be Yourself.” So, let’s go to our first big question, what does  the literature tell us? “Just be yourself,” they   say, and that’s all very well, but it’s a major  task when you haven’t quite figured out who you   are. In the 60s, Erikson described adolescence  as “the time to resolve identity confusion,”   and that classic framework has been supported  by many longitudinal studies. Interestingly,   MRI data are also consistent. The brain  networks linked to self-reflection light   up more frequently during adolescence  than at any other stage of development. The concepts profo – proposed by Erikson have  since been extended by Marcia, and later Meeus,   exploring, for example, depth of identity  exploration, where deep investigation is   linked to a positive outcome. Young people’s  self-concepts vacillate, particularly during   the younger teenage years. The transition  between identities is a time of vulnerability,   when adolescents are highly sensitive  to feedback from those around them. Non-verbal feedback, like, a negative  stare, may be more influential than verbal,   given the established sensitivity of  the teenage brain to non-verbal cues.   The environment is highly influential  to identity formation, chameleon-like,   teens change identity dependent on  their surroundings. For example,   Blakemore’s Lab examined adolescents’  descriptions of themselves on and   offline. Results showed distinct presentation  styles for different social media platforms. We know too that significant others are likely  to su – to influence formation and stability   of identity, though the effect could be  di – bidirectional. Parents, Teachers,   and we might hypothesise, mental health  professionals, influence self-concept,   both intentionally and unintentionally. Given  the salience of peers in a teenager’s world,   it’s not surprising that attachment to peers is  particularly central to the process. Certainly,   Steinberg and Morris showed that the  social identity of a peer group, say,   delinquent or academic, has strong links to  personal identity. Indeed, a multitude of   people and experiences yo – offer young people  a social laboratory to find out who they are. Now we turn to our second big question and ask,  so what? To consider what this means in practice,   I’m delighted to welcome Deborah Christie,  Professor of Paediatric and Adolescent Psychology,   an award-winning Consultant Psychologist,  she specialises in solution-focused,   motivational and narrative therapies, more  on this later. She has authored more than 200   peer reviewed publications, bestselling  books, and critical expert reports. So,   I think it’s certainly time for  a Christie masterclass. Deborah. Professor Deborah Christie  Hello, Jane, how are you? Dr Jane Gilmour So great to have you. We  are just delighted to have your expertise. Professor Deborah Christie Thank  you very much, it’s nice to be here. Dr Jane Gilmour I have a whole gamut of  questions that I hope we will able to cover… Professor Deborah Christie Okay. Dr Jane Gilmour …and I want to start with the  first one. We’ve established from the literature   that identity formation is a core task for  adolescents, and I have read, in a key paper   you recently published, about the methods of  using the “Tree of Life” to help young people   articulate who they are. So, could you describe  the Tree of Life to those that are not familiar? Professor Deborah Christie Okay, so, let me start  with the roots of the Tree of Life itself. There’s   some people I think it’s really important just  to mention before we start talking about what   it is. The roots – the Tree of Life grew out of  work by Ncazelo Ncube and the Dulwich Centre,   and they were working with young people who had  lost their parents as a result of AIDS, in South   Africa. And the important issue for Ncazelo was  that talking about loss just made people very sad   and talking about the problem made people very  sad. And the Dulwich Centre workers, and David   Denborough, in particular, began to think with  her about, rather than starting from the problem,   what about starting from a safe place, a safe  place to stand before you talk about difficulties? So, the Tree of Life is a metaphor  really, and along with my colleagues,   Glenda Fredman and Lucy Casdagli, we began to  think about how we could offer young people who   were living with the challenges of diabetes  a riverbank position. A safe place to stand,   before talking about the problems and, also,   how to have fun, and to start with what people  know, what they’re actually familiar with. So… Dr Jane Gilmour I’m really struck  by that idea of the metaphor. I think   that’s a wonderful – and you talk  about that “safe place,” because   it’s slightly disconnected from  me, so I think that’s wonderful. Professor Deborah Christie Yeah, and if you think  about it, you know, if you’re in the middle of the   river and you’re trying to swim, there are  crocodiles and there are rocks in the river,   and you’re banging your head when you’re running  away from the crocodiles, it’s really very,   very hard to think about yourself whilst you’re  in the middle of that tumultuous torrent. So,   being able to stand on the side  of the river is the beginning,   and the tree is the metaphor for who you are. So, I think we’re going, through the magic  of technology, somebody’s going to put up a   picture of a tree. And you’ll see that  the tree obviously is – has got roots   and the tree is in the ground and it has  a trunk, it has branches and leaves and   flowers and fruits. And I want you to  imagine that – what you would do, Jane,   is I would – I mean, maybe the easiest way is  just me to ask you these questions to start? Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah, go for it, let’s… Professor Deborah Christie Imagine that  you were – I asked you to just draw a tree,   so that’s how you begin. You just begin by  drawing a tree, and it doesn’t have to be   particularly artistic. You just draw a tree and  you say, “Don’t forget to put some roots in,   and a bit of ground and have a trunk, as  big or as little as you want to, and put   some branches on there, and draw some leaves  and draw some fruits and draw some flowers.” Dr Jane Gilmour Okay, let’s  imagine I’ve done that. Professor Deborah Christie Yeah, so, just  – you know, that’s what you start off. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie And  so then I ask you to now tell me,   and you can do this, “Tell me  a little bit about your roots,   where do you come from? What would you draw?  If you were to draw on the roots of your tree,   what would be some key bits about you  that you would think were important?” Dr Jane Gilmour Well, do you know  what I’m going to do, Deborah,   I’m going to keep a young person in mind  that I worked with not long ago, because… Professor Deborah Christie Okay. Dr Jane Gilmour …I just thought  this would be really useful for me,   I’ll get two jobs done in the space of one space. Professor Deborah Christie Okay. Dr Jane Gilmour So, this young man was a second  generation immigrant, living in the city in,   you know, a pretty urban environment. Had lots of  extended family around, lots of immediate family   and extended family, and was the second of four  kids, two younger sisters, one older brother,   super bright older brother, and very much at  the centre of his family, yeah. What else? Professor Deborah Christie Okay,  and the important thing about this   though is you have to suspend your  knowledge and expertise in him. Dr Jane Gilmour Oh, yes. Professor Deborah Christie So, he – you  might think those would be the things that   he would put down, but he might not. And  you can’t say, “Oh, but what about” or,   “And don’t forget,” and – because this is –  the key thing is about what this is for you.   It’s your identity, and not the identity that  somebody else might be imposing on you. So,   when you’re working with somebody  that you know quite well already,   it’s really important to bite your tongue  and not say, “Oh, and don’t forget.” Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie Okay, you know, like,  when we’re doing motivational interviewing and   we’re asking people a decisional balance, we  don’t tell them what we think the advantages   of change would be, we invite them to  tell us. So, the same thing applies here,   what does he think his roots and culture and  family history would be? So, he may put some of   that down and he may not. You then move up to the  ground, once he’s put down four or five bits and   pieces, and you would ask him to put down some  hobbies, you know, what does he do day-to-day? Dr Jane Gilmour Football,  football, football, football. Professor Deborah Christie Okay, so that might  be all he puts down. It might be all that he puts   down, and he might just put “football” down.  But you can gently say, “What else? What else   might go down in the ground? What – you know,  what’s the soil that the tree is planted in?” Dr Jane Gilmour So, maybe some gaming, maybe. Professor Deborah Christie  Yeah, so that might come in. Dr Jane Gilmour And helping my little  sister, I think that’s the thing that... Professor Deborah Christie He would talk about? Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie Okay, so he would put  that down. And then you would say to him, “So,   okay, let’s look at the trunk of the tree. Now the  trunk of the tree is the thing that it’s – gives   it its strength, okay. It’s important to have  lots of roots, you know, to hold you down. It’s   important to have good ground, and – but it’s  important to have a trunk. And on our trunk,   I want you to write down all the things you’re  good at, all the things that you’re – your   skills that you have, all your abilities,”  and you invite them to write that down. Now, one of the things about the Tree of  Life is, it’s always done in large groups,   now, as well. Okay, I’m going to come  back on that. It’s not always done,   ‘cause I use it individually in practice, but  you can u – but the way it was developed was   it’s in a workshop environment, it’s with  a group of kids. So, all of the kids are   writing down what they think they’re good  at and what they think they’re able to do. Now, this can be tough for kids who have  got low self-esteem, or who are living in   a problem saturated world. So, again, you  have to restrain your desire to say, “Oh,   but you’ve told me that you’re good at that,”  or, “You’ve told me that you’re good at that,”   and just help them come up with those things  themselves. So, just patiently saying, “Well,   what else do you think? What else has  somebody else told you you’re good at?” Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm hmm. Professor Deborah Christie You know, that  question that’s quite useful for adolescents   is when you ask them what do they like doing, and  they say, “I don’t know.” So, if you put it into   the third person, which is, “Well, what will  your mates say that you like doing?” Or, “What   will your mates say you enjoy – you’re good at?”  They’re then able to say, “My friends will tell   me I’m good at football.” So, he might – football  might appear as – on one of his skills, as well. So, having spent a bit of time filling out the  trunk and writing on the trunk, you then move onto   the branches. Now, branches are hopes and dreams,  so, you know, wording this is saying, “On each of   the branch, put a hope or put a dream or something  that you’d like to happen in the future, something   that, you know, that will grow out of this trunk,  you know, anything that you can think of, at all.”   Now, some kids are very good at doing this and  will fill this out, and other kids will have very   few branches filled out, but that’s okay because,  you know, like all trees, it’s an organic thing,   and you can add to it for as long as you want  to, and you can add to it during the workshop,   as well as in this moment. But we’re just  trying to get something on paper to start with. Dr Jane Gilmour And I love that, it was actually  going to be one of my questions, to think about   how we can adapt to an evolving identity, which  we know is very much central to the adolescent   experience. So, that idea of an organic, moving,  growing thing is wonderful, so we can change   those identities, and, I guess, a branch might  fall off and a new one grows, that sort of… Professor Deborah Christie Exactly. Dr Jane Gilmour …idea. Professor Deborah Christie Exactly, and I’ve got  people I’ve worked with who’ve taken their trees   away and put them on their wardrobes, and then,  as the work has progressed, you can come back   to it and say, “Oh, wow, is that a new skill? I  wonder, do you want to put that on your tree? Do   you still have your Tree of Life? You could add  that to your Tree of Life.” So, then the – and   you can see on the picture that we’ve got up here,  that you then ask them to put on each leaf of the   tree a significant person and, again, no clues,  no encou – no giving them any tips here. Because   you might desperately want them to put “mum, dad  and my Psychologist” down, but I was – always used   to smile at the number of times I got left  off the tree, and I thought, fair enough. Dr Jane Gilmour Don’t take it personally. Professor Deborah Christie Yeah, I know. Dr Jane Gilmour Well, I think this young man   would name he had three or  four really good friends… Professor Deborah Christie Okay. Dr Jane Gilmour …and his little  sister always came into the picture… Professor Deborah Christie Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …so I think that’s what he  – I don’t think he would mention parents.  Professor Deborah Christie Yeah, and that’s –  that in itself is quite interesting. But I think   it’s worth, kind of, you know, you can encourage  gently by saying, “Well, who else has, you know,   been in your life? Who else, you know, right now  is important to you?” And I – and the other thing   that you can do is you say, “Do you know, they can  be people from films, or they could be people from   books, or they can be people from things and  we – as well.” So, we’ve got leaves which are   the people, and people can – and the nice thing  about this is you can keep going, “Do you want to   add anymore skills? Do you want to add anything  else?” You know, you can move back and forwards. We then add flowers, which are  gifts that you have given to people,   and we add fruits, the gifts that  people have given to you. Now,   you might want to explain that a  bit for younger kids, but, you know,   “What presents have people given you? What things  have people given you that you really valued?” Dr Jane Gilmour And can they be… Dr Deborah Christie And sometimes… Dr Jane Gilmour …would they be  metaphorical or material gifts, or either? Professor Deborah Christie Either, however people  take it. So, you know, for me, I might – I mean,   my – the – one of the thing that I always  put down is that my dad gave me confidence,   so I would always put down confidence. And gifts  I’ve given to others, I would probably always   put a smile, that, you know, that I think I  make – well, not everybody, but, you know,   most people smile. So, yeah, again, you know,  it’s – the – it’s – again, and if you were to,   kind of, link it to the idea of solution-focused  therapy, people might be familiar with the idea of   the miracle question is just ‘cause you don’t  think the person’s ever going to be a Oscar,   Hollywood actor or actress, doesn’t  mean that that’s not their miracle. So,   you have to be very neutral and be very  good at, kind of, like, saying, “Well,   what else do you think? What else would  you like to put on there?” It’s their tree. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie  Okay? So, that’s the first stage,   and the next bit of the process is the  narrative, where the narrative therapy   comes in. And I know you can put resources up,  so there’s a really nice paper by Lucy Casdagli,   which you can let people know about, which is all  about this process and talks about how it works,   but also the sorts of questions that you  would ask when you do the next stage,   which is the thickening. So, you might come to  – you would – what – and what – in the workshop,   what happens is young people are interviewed and  they’re interviewed by – usually by a member of   the Group Facilitators. There’s two or three Group  Facilitators, who would, in front of everybody,   say, “Let me ask you a few questions about  your tree. So, let me ask you a little bit   about football, you’ve got football on your  trunk as a skill, tell me a bit about that.   How come you’re good at football? What’s helped  you become good at football? Who is it that’s   helped you become good at football? You know,  who have been the people that have helped you?” So, you invite and you elaborate stories  of skills and abilities by saying,   “Tell me a bit more about this.” You historicise  them, so, “How long have you” – so, you know,   “How long have you been good at football?  Where does that dream of being a footballer   come from? Who taught you that?” So, you  can see bringing people from the system   in. And bring into relationships with  others, “Who notices that you’re good   at football? Who do you share being good at  football with?” So, does that make sense? Dr Jane Gilmour Absolutely,  I think that’s wonderful. Professor Deborah Christie Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour So – because these are such  revealing questions, they’re all delivered   through the football forum, but actually will  be very revealing in terms of, you know, what’s… Professor Deborah Christie Yeah, and you… Dr Jane Gilmour …important and who’s important. Professor Deborah Christie And here  you connect up to the leaves. So,   “Who supports you in this now? Who makes  it possible for you to do this? Is there   anybody that you haven’t thought of  that you want to add to your leaves?” Dr Jane Gilmour And it really makes me think  about the literature that we touched on at the   beginning, about that influential network  that really helps a young person develop   their identity. And those very people will  be the network that are underpinning that   young person’s stability and type of  identity, it’s absolutely beautiful. Professor Deborah Christie Yeah, I mean, and,  again, you know, depending on how long you’ve   got in your interview and depending on the sorts  of questions they ask, you might ask questions,   like, “So, you know, I noticed, you know, in  your roots that you’ve talked about, you know,   your family, how has your family supported you  developing these football skills? And who’s   given you” – you know, and he talks about  a Coach that gave him some lessons once,   or he talks about somebody he saw on –  you know, a footballer that he saw, like,   you know, Marcus Rashford and maybe connects  with the fact that somebody that he’s seen on   television gave him hope. If he’s a young man  from a particular ethnic group, he might have a   particular footballer that makes him realise that  actually he could achieve this, in a – you know,   if he’s a refugee or something like that, then  seeing somebody who was a refugee will give him   hope. So, you can start to make those connections  by questioning, by narrative questioning. So, every kid in the workshop does  this, and everybody’s listening,   and then what you do is you invite people to  add, or to give some gifts. So, “What have   you heard about that makes you impressed or in –  you know, interested in, you know, this?” And you   might have brought out skills like determination,  because when you were asking him about football,   he might have said, “Oh, well, you know, it’s  been very hard and I couldn’t afford, you know,   the football boots, but I went anyway and played  in my trainers, but then so-and-so gave me a pair   of second-hand boots, and I’ve just never given  up.” “Wow, what do you call never giving up,   is there a word that you use to describe that?”  “Yes, I – well, it’s called perseverance.” “Okay,   well, I noticed perseverance isn’t on  there, but let’s put perseverance on there.” Dr Jane Gilmour Oh, lovely, so  you’re teasing out these fruits… Professor Deborah Christie Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …as… Professor Deborah Christie You’re thickening… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie …thickening and  thickening and thickening the identity really. Dr Jane Gilmour And I’m particularly  struck by that idea of using the peer group,   because we know how important the peer group  is to a young person in the adolescent phase. Professor Deborah Christie Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour And in the paper  you stretch the metaphor beautifully   by talking about the “Forest of  Life,” it’s absolutely beautiful. Professor Deborah Christie Yeah,  that’s right, which is that next bit. Dr Jane Gilmour Well, the witnessing idea   is very interesting, can you talk to us  about that in a little bit more detail? Professor Deborah Christie Yeah, I mean the  next bit of the workshop would involve all of   the young people who’ve all had a chance to  share their trees, and all had a chance to   thicken their stories, and all been given  some fruits and flowers by everybody. So,   they’ve given – you know, I’ve given him, I would  say to him, “You know, listening to you talking,   I want to give you this. I think you’ve got  perseverance and I want to put that on your   tree as a skill that you have,” and I write it on  his Post-It Note, and I pop it onto the tree. And,   of course, if you get very fancy and, you know,  you can buy Post-It Notes in the shape of fruits. Dr Jane Gilmour Oh, can you? Professor Deborah Christie You can really get  fancy, you know, good old Amaz – oh, Amazon,   other delivery companies are available. So, you  would – you know, you can do all sort – or you   can just use plain old bits of paper and a bit of  Blu Tack, you know, if you don’t have all of that. So, then what happens is each tree gets put up  onto a wall and I’ve – you know, we can – if you   can imagine, you have a wall filled with these  pictures, filled with these trees, you have a   forest, and you invite people to wander amongst  the forest, “Go and have a look at the forest.”   And they all look at the forest and they all start  to think, oh, wow. Oh, I want to add something   else to that one, so you can keep adding. So,  you create what we call the “Forest of Life.” Dr Jane Gilmour It’s  absolutely beautiful, as I love… Professor Deborah Christie It is. Dr Jane Gilmour …the metaphor… Professor Deborah Christie Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …and it’s such  a powerful one, because, also,   the idea of a forest standing together,  being a stronger environment of, you know,   there being an ecology there, it’s absolutely  beautiful. And the physical walking around,   I hadn’t quite appreciated from the  paper, but the idea that the young people   physically walk around and look at… Professor Deborah Christie Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …one another’s trees. Professor Deborah Christie Yeah, everybody –  it’s a really emotional thing to do, actually,   when you see them altogether, and you can, kind  of, see the comparisons and the similarities,   you know, when young people get to  understand that actually, you know,   they have similar things. And they can add  as they go, you know, if you want to add   something to somebody’s tree, you can add it,  something that you heard them talking about,   something – and kids are so generous with  each other. They’re so generous, you know,   and they just ge – once they get the hang of it,  you know, it’s hard to stop them, put the stop on. Dr Jane Gilmour But you are so warm and  imaginative in the way you describe the tree,   have you ever come across a young person  or, indeed, you know, because you are so   warm and imaginative, I imagine it hasn’t  quite happened in your orbit, but have you   ever heard of a young person saying, “I don’t –  you know, I don’t know what a tree is all about,   you know, I’m not doing a tree,” you know, “I’m  not engaging with that,” in other words. Do you   ever have to work hard to deliver, you know, to  deliver the metaphor in the first instance? Or   do you think young people are connecting with  that metaphor straightaway in most instances? Professor Deborah Christie I think you  have to do a bit groundwork. I mean,   I do think you have to do a bit of  groundwork. So, before, you know – I mean,   the kids that we started working this – working  on this with were young people with diabetes,   and they were often young people who were  struggling, and they had been referred to   psychology and had said, “No, thank you,” often  not as politely as that. And so, what we did was,   we would call them up and say, “Would you  come and help us? We’ve got a project and   we would love you to come and talk about your  strengths and abilities and your skills,” and… Dr Jane Gilmour Oh, that’s beautiful, because  you’re using the consultative model. You’re   saying, “Look, I need your help, can you help  me?” Which is playing to the strengths of the   teenage brain, so, it’s a piece of genius. Professor Deborah Christie Oh well, it’s – as   I said, it wasn’t us that invented it, we’ve just  adapted it. It was, you know, it was Ncube really   that developed this wonderful programme. And it’s  a – the thing about it is, it is adaptable, and   there are so many different teams that have taken  this and used it in different conditions. You   can – you know, it’s been used with adults, it’s  been used with adults in psychiatric settings,   it can be used for kids with things like epilepsy.  And I’ve even use – I mean, I’ve even used it with   adults in coaching environments, where people have  really low self-esteem, and just don’t know where   they want to go, and so we just stop and just  do this and say, “Let’s find out who you are.” Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie And if you’re in an  individual, you know – it’s not as powerful when   you do it on a one-to-one, it’s definitely not as  powerful, but you can do it with an individual.   And the other thing that you can do is you  can do the “Team of Life,” where you use   a different metaphor, so you – a kid who’s –  well, this young man you’ve just talked about,   football crazy, he could do a Team  of Life, where what you do is you   present him with a football pitch and you  invite him to tell you who’s on the bench,   who’s in the changing rooms, who’s the  Coach, what position he plays on the team,   what’s his – what’s the team music, what’s the  team uniform, so you can do the Team of Life. But we – I remember we had – we all got a bit  carried away and it almost became a competition.   I think somebody did an “Orchestra of  Life,” I’m sure that’s been published,   so you can actually do an anything of life,  it’s – you get the metaphor that works,   really. We present it as a tree, and most  – I’ve never had any – you know, I – again,   I’d – I mean, I don’t know, I’ve never had  a kid say, “Stick your tree,” if I’m honest   with you. Some of them struggle to make it  as beautiful as you would like it to be,   and you think, oh, what about – and why don’t  you put this on? And blah, blah, but, actually,   when they all – they’re all sitting round and  you haven’t said, “We’re now going to talk   about your diabetes,” you’ve said, “We’d like  you all to just do some drawing, in silence.” Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie And   it’s, like, “Oh, okay, I can do that.” Dr Jane Gilmour It’s a step,  you know, a step away from it,   which allows them to step towards you. Professor Deborah Christie  It’s a safe place to stand. Dr Jane Gilmour And – it’s a safe place to  stand, that’s a really important phrase, I think,   that we can take. And I’m really struck by the  idea of the power of being in that peer group, and   the idea that as – in a peer group together, which  is a much more powerful place, and a much safer   place for a young person to be, in lots of ways,  although they will be referencing one another. Professor Deborah Christie Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour The way you’re talking about that  is they reference one another in a positive way,   and it becomes a supportive environment, obviously  facilitated by you and by the other peers. I also   really like – I was talking to some young people  about their CAMHS experience not long ago and,   again and again, they said the most  important thing – the most important   part of their experience was that somebody  talked about what they were interested in.   And the way you’re talking about adapting  that metaphor means that we can do that,   whether I’m a footballer or a music player or,  you know, whatever I am, I can use that metaphor. And I think that that creativity in  work with young people just shines   through so strongly. I mean, it’s the one  I really remember as a, sort of, spoiler,   Deborah was my mentor when I was a trainee,  and I hadn’t seen anybody use im – you know,   techniques with such creativity before, and  it’s really something that stuck with me all   the way through my career. But it really  is something that matters to young people.   It matters very much that you can embed what  matters to them in a therapeutic technique,   and that is just, you know, it’s really  inspirational. I think that’s fantastic. Professor Deborah Christie Well,  you’ve done very well, Jane. Dr Jane Gilmour Well, thank you. I want to  – while I pat – we pat ourselves on the back,   I want to think about failure now. Professor Deborah Christie Ah. Dr Jane Gilmour I want to, you  know, make like Elizabeth Day and   embrace failures. You’ve been there  and done that with the Tree of Life… Professor Deborah Christie Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …and can you cast your mind back  and think about what was your favourite mistake?   What was the most – perhaps the most difficult  moment with it, and what did you learn from it? Professor Deborah Christie That’s all  – that’s like that interview question,   isn’t it, “What were your  – what’s your weaknesses?” Dr Jane Gilmour Oh no, it’s  not, it’s not. It’s about… Professor Deborah Christie What  – I think it’s about le – no,   it’s about learning from what  went well and what didn’t go well. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie And I think the –  so, I’m just trying to think what’s the most   helpful thing to say. I think it’s about  trusting the process, and I think things   go wrong when you don’t trust the process. So,  for example, if somebody’s not filling it in,   filling it in for them, you know, the being,  kind of, like, “Oh, well, let me help you,” or,   “Let me make some suggestions,” because then  it becomes your tree and not theirs. And it   doesn’t happen often, but I think there are  times when, in any therapeutic situation,   when you become overwhelmed by the righting  reflex, and I’m talking about the r-i-g-h-t,   righting reflex, where you feel compelled to  fix it. You feel compelled to make it go right,   and so, therefore, you abandon the  process and just, kind of, say, “Well,   let’s change things,” or, “Let’s not  carry on,” or, “Let’s stop ‘cause this   isn’t working.” I think when you do that  it does – it actually does stop working… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie …because you lose the  power. And the power of this is to just sit with   it, and – because somebody who doesn’t fill in a  lot on their tree, the other young people rescue   them, and the questions that you ask them,  the questions that you invite them to ask,   allow – really allow them to start  seeing themselves as having an identity… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie …that other  people recognise and appreciate. So,   I think the times when it hasn’t gone so  well have been when I have – and I – and   it still happens, still happens, when you  allow the righting reflex to take over. Dr Jane Gilmour And it’s a very important piece  of therapeutic information, if a young person is   sitting with an empty tree, you know, if we think  about that experience, and it may be a transition   period in terms of their identity, and not quite  knowing where they’re connecting or who they’re   connecting with or what they feel is on the – on  their ground. And, again, the idea of the peer   group diving in and saying, you know, “What about  this?” Or your “Listen to me and, you know, you   could put that on the tree,” is much more powerful  than a much older Therapist, you know, righting… Professor Deborah Christie So… Dr Jane Gilmour …trying to  right that wrong as it were.  Professor Deborah Christie Well, I think that’s  really true, and one of the things that we did,   one of the things that we developed, with  this process was, we started saying to the   young people who’ve gone through the process – and  after the forest, you have the storms and then you   have the combating the storms, and then you have a  celebration, but what we then do is say, “And now,   would you like to come back and run the groups  with us?” And quite a lot of young people do,   and they have a special training session  and they become a qualified Peer Trainer,   and they then come back and they sit in  and they help to run the groups. Now,   you can’t say to somebody, “Why don’t you put  that down on your tree?” But a Peer Trainer can. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Deborah Christie ‘Cause the Peer  Trainers are the same – a couple of years   older maybe. We had a couple of young women  who we eventually said to them, “You know,   you’re 24 now, and you just qualified in  a career, and you probably are a bit old,   you’re nearly as old as us now,” so they had to  resign. But they loved coming back and they came   back and they came back and they came back and  they ran the groups. They got great at doing the   narrative questioning and the thickening. And  what was really interesting was that some of   our best Peer Trainers were young people  that never wanted to see a Psychologist. Dr Jane Gilmour That’s so interesting. Professor Deborah Christie It was really – it  was great. And what’s really also very nice is,   is that, you know, they keep in touch, as well,  and let you know how they are doing in their life,   and, still, we haven’t talked about diabetes, and  it’s – the diabetes comes in at the very, very,   very, very end, when we’re talking  about the storms, ‘cause we say,   “Let’s talk about the storms, the  storms that affect everybody.”   And then we say, “Does diabetes introduce any  additional storms?” And they throw in a few,   and then we talk about the combating them. But all  – what you’ve done is you’ve created – diabetes   is just a rather annoying thunderstorm. It’s a  annoying wind that blows through the branches,   that might make the tree sway a bit, but actually  the tree has all these roots, all this ground, all   these skills and strong trunk, and these branches. Dr Jane Gilmour So, it’s a very evident   experience for the young person  that their identity is so much   more than their diabetes, or their illness… Professor Deborah Christie Absolutely. Dr Jane Gilmour …or their, you know,  whatever, the reason that they refer to CAMHS,   that’s the PS, and the tree is everything  that I am. So, it’s a very powerful metaphor,   I’m not surprised that you – you’re  having to ask your Peer Trainers to leave,   because they are connected in a  way that really is very powerful. Professor Deborah Christie  Yeah, and it’s really lovely.   And, I mean, what we hear from them is that  it helps to build a positive view of themself,   and that it helps them connect with others,  so it separates them from the diabetes,   but they learn from each other about living  with it. So, you’re doing that great thing,   we’re on the one hand and on the one  hand, so you’re learning about diabetes,   but you’re not diabetes. And my favourite,  favourite quote of all time was one young woman,   who’s a Doctor now, a Medical Doctor now,  was that having done the Tree of Life, she   realised that diabetes was one tiny little jigsaw  piece in the entire jigsaw that was her life. Dr Jane Gilmour Oh, that is  beautiful. That is wonderful. Professor Deborah Christie And it’s  just – I know, because it just – you   just got this picture of this fabulous  jigsaw, and this one tiny little bit. So,   it really, you know, it focuses  on quality, empowers young people,   it creates an open space to share experience, and  it creates a feeling of togetherness, so, yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour I can’t think of a better way to  end the review of the Tree of Life, because that   is a meta – another metaphor that that really  will stick with us, and it’s your – you know,   it’s a point at which I think you can feel  your work there is done, because that young   person describing that as “a piece,” okay, it  exists, but it’s not the whole of her puzzle. Professor Deborah Christie  Not the whole thing, yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour So, I’m going to turn  to our final big question and ask,   now what? Now I would like  you to draw on your extensive   experience and expertise and give us one  practical, low-cost but high-impact tip. Professor Deborah Christie Okay, always have a  bunch of paper and a packet of felt pens handy. Dr Jane Gilmour I love that,  that fulfils criteria. Do you   want to expand on that, or are we  going to leave that as our tip? Professor Deborah Christie I just think that,  you know, sometimes people don’t have the words.   Sometimes you can say, “Okay, this isn’t going  very well, I’m asking you a lot of really   rubbish questions, could you draw me a picture of  something?” And you can say, “Do you like trees?”   And, actually, I did – during the pandemic, I was  – I had phoned somebody up for a Zoom call and she   said, “Oh, I’m just walking the dog.” “Oh, okay,  fine. Do you want to do the session?” “Oh, yeah,   yeah, I’m in the park.” I said, “Are you near any  trees?” And she said, “Yeah.” I said, “Why don’t   you sit down under one?” And she sat down under  a tree and we did the Tree of Life under a tree. Dr Jane Gilmour Oh, that’s  quite a win. That’s beautiful. Professor Deborah Christie So, yeah,   so a pack – yeah, a packet of felt  pens that work and some paper. Dr Jane Gilmour Yes, that work, that is… Professor Deborah Christie You can  always do something with it, you know. Dr Jane Gilmour Okay, well, Deborah, as we close  this episode of “Inside the Team Brain,” it only   remains for me to thank you, Professor Christie,  an Oracle on teenage identity. Thank you so much. Professor Deborah Christie Thanks so  much, Jane, it was lovely. I so enjoyed it.