Dr Jane Gilmour Welcome to “Inside the Teen  Brain.” This ACAMH series will leave you   inspired by best practise and armed with tips  to transform your work. I’m Dr Jane Gilmour,   and I have a special interest in the teenage  brain. From puberty to about the age of 25,   the brain is in a unique state, with core drives  including identity, novelty, risk, peers, respect,   autonomy, and intense emotions. In each episode,  we explore one of these developmental drives,   and answer three big questions, what’s the  background? So what? And now what? Today,   we examine negative risk, and this  episode is called “A Second Chance.” Now, our first big question, what  does the literature tell us? Take   a chance and the outcome could be good or  bad. This episode explores harmful risk,   and young people who need a second chance  to reset their life path. The benefits of   risk are described in another episode. Strong  data show many aspects of positive and negative   risk taking increase during adolescence and the  early 20s, but, notably, antisocial risk peaks   in the late teens. When it comes to risk taking  and the teenage brain, context is everything. In CAMH settings, Reyna and Farley’s review argues  convincingly that even younger adolescents can   make informed judgements about risk, however, make  the setting emotional, or add peer presence to the   mix, and it’s a very different game. Gardner  shows teenagers are more likely than any other   demographic to take dangerous risks, but only  in emotional contexts. The executive functions,   inhibition, control and goal direction, are fairly  well developed by the mid-teens. Even so, Galván’s   work suggests that the executive function’s  voice of reason can be drowned out by reward and   sensation seeking because the brain’s emotional  centres are acutely sensitive in adolescence. Dual systems theories, proposed by Casey  Steinberg and others, hypothesised different   developmental trajectories for emotional and  reasoning networks. And though aspects of these   frameworks are contested, they do offer a credible  explanation for adolescent risk taking patterns,   including criminality. For example, CBT  intervention showing improved emotional   regulation predict a reduction in criminal  risk taking. But other approaches might   leverage the powerful biological drives  of the teenage brain more effectively,   like programmes offering sports qualifications  to young people in the criminal justice system. Remember, the propensity to take good or bad risk  likely exists in the same person. It’s family,   peer and societal experience that influences the  direction of risk. So interventions offering an   adaptive risk that feed the need for risk taking,  that provide an alternative identity, mentorship   and a positive peer group, might just offer our  young people the best odds on their second chance. We turn now to our second big question and ask,  so what? For young people who take harmful risks,   what can we do to help them change path? Well,  to consider the implications for practice,   I’m so pleased to introduce Professor Rosie  Meek, a Chartered Psychologist with expertise   in criminal justice and prisoner rehabilitation.  She’s authored numerous academic articles,   chapters and books, and an influential  review on behalf of the Ministry of   Justice. Rosie is a Fulbright Scholar,  UK Research and Innovation Policy Fellow,   an Advisor to the UN Office on Drugs  and Crime, so who better to steer   our conversation today? Welcome, Rosie,  it’s lovely to have you on our series. Professor Rosie Meek Thanks for  having me, it’s exciting to be here. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah, I’ve got  a very long list of questions,   and I’m sure we won’t get through them all, so  we better crack on. And I’ll start with my first,   which is really, I want to know a little  bit about “A Sporting Chance,” the prisoner   rehabilitation programme that you’re involved  in, could you tell us a little bit about that? Professor Rosie Meek Yeah, of course. So,  I was invited by the then Justice Minister,   back in 2018, to undertake the work behind  my Sporting Chance review, on the back of   having written a book and lots of articles and  evaluation reports about the importance of sport   and physical activity in our criminal justice  system, particularly in our prisons. And so,   as part of that review, I explored what I  thought were the key issues around sport,   physical activity and movement in our justice  system. And I came up with a set of a dozen or   so recommendations, about how we could better  use sport and physical activity in our prisons,   in our young offenders’ institutes,  in our secure children’s homes,   in our pupil referral units, and  other parts of our justice system. And this was an exciting opportunity for an  academic like me, because I had the opportunity   to look at what was currently going on, and I  should say, at the very top of this conversation,   there’s some brilliant Practitioners working in  this space. Some people in the prison system,   some partner sporting groups and bodies,  lots of organisations who are really singing   from the same song sheet on the importance of  encouraging our young people to be physically   active as part of effort to rehabilitate  and to promote health and wellbeing. But I was also struck at how provision across  our prisons and youth establishments was a   little bit patchy. It relied sometimes on  a really great member of staff going above   and beyond. I didn’t think the policy was  there to create a robust enough framework,   so that’s where my recommendations came in.  And I’m really pleased to say that despite   obviously COVID coming in between that  time and now, that the Prison Service,   the Youth Custody Service, and a whole range  of practitioners have taken seriously those   recommendations, and have started to  implement some of them in their work. The big backdrop, though, I’m seeing in our  prisons is that obviously as you may have seen   on the news, we have an overcrowding issue in  our prisons and we also have a staffing crisis.   So it’s very difficult to implement some of these  positive initiatives against that backdrop. But,   for me, that’s the reason I’m still pursuing this  agenda. I still think there’s a long way to go,   and I see countless examples of sport  and physical activity really helping   turn around young people’s lives.  And it’s still something where I’m   frequently pleasantly surprised at  the transformation that we can see. Dr Jane Gilmour So, I mean, which  brings me to my second query really,   about the impact of the programme. I know  it’s a longitudinal dataset, which, you know,   of course, we all have data envy, that’s such  a wonderful opportunity, do you have any sense   of the impact that the programme is having  in terms of rates of reoffending, and so on? Professor Rosie Meek Yeah, so, I should say that  that programme of work isn’t the data in itself,   but it draws on existing data and summarises  existing research. So I was able, as part of   that piece of work, to look at a whole range of  evaluation projects that use sport and physical   activity to engage with children, young people and  adults. And on – in terms of the overall picture,   there’s some really promising findings around  reducing reoffending, diverting people into   education and employment, creating much  better health and wellbeing outcomes. As you’ll be not at all surprised to hear, I think  there needs to be more research in this area,   around exactly, as you say, longitudinal studies.   And, also, to be a bit more nuanced in what, sort  of, outcomes we’re looking at, because just a   straightforward reoffending outcome is not always  the most obvious one or helpful one to look at. I’m also very much involved in qualitative  research where I sit and talk to practitioners,   and people receiving these sorts of interventions,  to find out what it is behind the data that’s   having an impact on them. And that’s where we get  some of the really exciting, I think, qualitative   findings that have been helping us shape  provision, policy and practice in this area, but… Dr Jane Gilmour Could you give us a  taster, you know, some highlights perhaps? Professor Rosie Meek Absolutely. So, I was  in a youth prison just last week talking to   young men who have been taking part in a  training initiative where they are being   coached to become Football Coaches. And these  young men talk really passionately about how   they’ve found something which they really want  to implement, not just whilst they’re in prison,   but after release from prison, when they return  to their communities. And I really get the sense,   and this happens with so many  of the programmes I observe,   that these initiatives had instilled a  sense of hope amongst these young men. I work with young women as well, but the  example I’m giving is from young men I was   talking with. It gave them a sense of a different  identity, which, as you know, as a Psychologist,   is so critical when we’re encouraging people  to change behaviours. When people can start   to see themselves in a different way,  that can be one of the most powerful   ways of bringing about behaviour change.  So, that’s an example of just talking to   some young men who were really into sport, which  isn’t surprising, but they were quite pleasantly   surprised themselves about how they had, as  a result of taking part in this initiative,   started to see their own futures quite differently  and be motivated to make some different choices.   And obviously when I’m talking to young  people in prison that’s pretty important. We want people to start to think about their  future beyond prison, and we want to put in   place action plans, if you like, to support them  in those new choices. I have an example of a   young man who I met in prison during one of the  park runs, which I was involved in establishing,   and following a conversation with him was able  to give him some guidance and advice on how he   could pick up his degree level studies, which he  had been wanting to embark on before he received   his custodial sentence. And I’m really pleased to  say that he was successful then in returning to   a university, after he completed his prison  sentence. And I got a wonderful letter from   him after he graduated and was going into the  workplace, about how just that chance conversation   at the end of a park run had had given him  that little bit of hope and the support that   he needed to make that transition. So, they’re  just a couple of examples that stay in my mind. Dr Jane Gilmour I mean, it’s so  interesting, because as you’re talking,   I’m really struck by two themes there. One is  the passion and the other one is the identity,   and we know those are two key brain drives in  the young people under the age of 25. And so   the programme, you know, if you’re thinking  about the sport and movement programme,   it’s harnessing a passion, in this case sport,  which is really interesting. And it’s an   opportunity to change identity from somebody  perhaps who sees themselves as an offender,   a difficult kid, a bad kid, as, you know – and  transforming that into a sportsperson, or so on. Professor Rosie Meek That’s right. Dr Jane Gilmour Do you – can you  hypothesise – and we’ve talked a   little bit about the importance of that  emotional idea, and harnessing emotion,   but can you talk a little bit about how you  might hypothesise young people learn emotional   regulation in that sport setting, and the, sort  of, mechanism of change that might be going on? Professor Rosie Meek Yeah, I mean, to illustrate  that, I think we’ll go back to one of the reasons   why I started researching this topic, because,  as a Forensic Psychologist, I’ve worked in   prisons for a very long time. And it struck  me that the prison gym and the sports fields,   if some prisons have them, are one of the few  places in a prison where both the prisoners   and the prison staff want to be. And a place  where there’s a certain amount of normalisation,   where people actually talk about the  fact they – for a brief period of time,   they don’t feel like they’re in prison. It’s  quite liberating occupying these spaces. And I’m not being naïve here, there are  occasions when people don’t feel safe,   but actually it’s remarkably unlikely. There are  very few instances of violence in these spaces,   and I think that’s partly because people value   occupying those spaces so much. There’s that  sense of normality, but critically, there are   much more positive relationships between – when  we’re talking about youth prisons in particular,   the young people who are being detained and the  adults who are there in – overseeing them. So the   staff and those young people in their care. It’s  some of the most positive relationships that I’ve   seen in a prison setting, and that, of course,  is incredibly valuable, because the staff may   be using that opportunity to demonstrate  how best to regulate emotions, and so on. But I also think there are some really valuable  lessons in sporting opportunities, where people   can try out and practise ways of managing their  emotions. And very early on, when I was looking at   this, I evaluated some rugby-based programmes, in  prisons, and we had some really powerful findings   there about how particularly quite violent young  offenders were managing their emotions better. We   saw some amazing data around young people who had  been in the segregation unit, who had been known   as the “troublemakers” in the prison, who had  repeatedly been involved in violent incidences,   really transforming quite swiftly, surprisingly,  as a result of taking part in this programme. And when I sat and talked to these  young men about those experiences,   they explained how on the rugby pitch they’d  been firstly given a positive outlet for some   of the frustrations they felt, the physical  energy that they held within their bodies,   but, secondly, they were given an opportunity to  try out ways of regulating their emotions. In a   sport like rugby, discipline and respect  and teamwork are all valued very highly,   and people would very quickly be almost  self-policed by their team mates if there   was a violent outburst. And that was very powerful  for me, as the person evaluating the programme,   that these young people had really absorbed  and taken on those lessons on the pitch and   translated them into their lives on the  wings, for example, and reflecting on   how they were better able to manage conflict  and frustrations without resorting to violence. So, for me, it seems to be a really – I don’t  want to say “easy,” but accessible way for some   of the young people I work with to be able  to find alternative ways of managing their   frustration and their emotions. Bearing in mind  that some of these people have come from very   complex backgrounds, where they haven’t had  many opportunities to observe people managing   their emotions and regulating those sorts  of violent outbursts in a more positive way. Of course, what that brings is a great  responsibility to our sports programmes,   because we also can probably all bring to  mind examples of sportspeople who haven’t   behaved very well in those situations and have had  violent outbursts. So, it does show that how much   some of our sporting figures in society almost  have a responsibility to be demonstrating how   to manage emotion in a pro-social, positive  way, and to channel that into their sport. Dr Jane Gilmour It’s – absolutely. I mean,   it’s a really important point you make,  but as you’re speaking, I’m really struck   with the idea about relationships. It’s  all about relationships, as it ever was. Professor Rosie Meek Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour With the idea that, you know,  in a different valued space, relationships can   change, and those individuals that might not be  seen as role models, or somebody that can help you   moderate or manage your emotions, suddenly become  that person, because you are in a changed space… Professor Rosie Meek Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …and thinking about  how that could be applied to lots of   different systems. You know, there’s lots –  you know, the challenges in terms of funding   and staff retention could be applied very  easily to the NHS, and so that – you know,   there’s lots of challenges in different  systems that are very similar. But the   idea of taking these principles and ideas,  and testing them out in different systems,   I think is really interesting. And I think the  important point about the role models that young   people look to, in terms of sports figures,  is an important one. It might be something… Professor Rosie Meek Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …to pause and reflect on,  absolutely. And, in fact, that brings me to a   question about the idea about mentoring. Now, we  know that young people respond well to somebody   who’s slightly older, but who has relatable  or lived experiences, as well as aspirational   positions. Can you talk a little bit about the  benefits and challenges of mentoring initiatives? Professor Rosie Meek Absolutely. So, I mean,  this is one of the areas of my research that   predates actually my work in the role of  sport and physical activity. So, if you like,   I’ve always had an eye on the mentoring  element of this context of my research,   because it is so powerful. And I look  at mentors both within prison spaces,   as well as people with lived experience coming  back into the justice system to mentor people   who are still in the justice system, and that  there’s something very powerful about someone   who has direct lived experience engaging with  people who are going through a similar journey. It doesn’t mean that we should be placing all  responsibility on people with lived experience.   I think we also need to be supporting mentors  appropriately and giving them enough provision   and support themselves and clinical supervision,  if you like, because some of these mentors are   carrying some pretty heavy stories, as part of  their day-to-day roles, but I think we can also be   making better use of people with lived experience.  And I was really compelled by the finding,   when I first looked at mentoring in prisons, that  so many people who are in the justice system,   when I asked them what they wanted to do when they  came out of prison, said they wanted to support   other people who’d been on their journey.  You see that a lot in drug recovery also. And it’s actually a very powerful, very generous  statement to make. Many of the young people I’ve   worked with in the justice system have been really  let down by society, in many different ways,   and yet here, I regularly have young people saying  to me, “I want to give something back to society,”   this, kind of, redemptive statement. Which may  come as some surprise to people who subscribe to   this notion of othering people in the justice  system, as these, kind of, monsters who we’re   better off forgetting about, there’s actually  a lot of citizenship in these populations. So, yeah, I think we do a pretty good  job of harnessing the mentoring-mentee   relationship. I do think we could do more  to support mentors so that they are not   being exploited and are fully supported  in what they’re doing. But, for me,   it’s some of the most powerful, transformative  work we see when a mentor works with a mentee,   and, time and time again, I’ve seen sport and  physical activity be used as the vehicle there,   as a way of developing a relationship, as a way of  establishing some rapport and some trust. Because,   again, let’s also remember that so many of the  young people we have in the justice system have   been let down by adults in their lives,  including professionals, and we do need   to be super cautious not to be replicating  that notion that adults can’t be trusted. So, this is a big priority for me, is to support  mentors so that they do have the capability and   the emotional bandwidth to do as effective a job  as they can. For that reason, I did some work with   an organisation called UK Coaching recently, where  we were looking at supporting Coaches who are very   established in their roles as Sports Coaches,  to come into prison spaces, and to be supported   so that they could do that with a full awareness  and understanding of the emotional toil that some   of that work takes. But, also, the rewards that  it can bring, in terms of supporting people,   very much borrowing from some of the youth  work context around supporting young people. Dr Jane Gilmour But it’s so – it’s such a  valuable leverage with some young people who   might be on the edges of making a decision  about which path to take. And I think we’ve   talked actually in another episode about how  young people can mentor in CAMH services… Professor Rosie Meek Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …you know, so that there’s  somebody there who’s been through that experience,   who’s just one step ahead, but not too far  ahead. And I think that’s a – you know,   as you say, it’s something that could be explored,   with the appropriate support to a greater  degree, I think that’s a really important point. Professor Rosie Meek I also think, just to add  onto that, you know, some of the organisations   I work with I applaud, because they have a  commitment to hiring, employing, people with   lived experience. And, again, I think we need to  call out instances where that doesn’t happen and   it could be happening, because those with lived  experience, who have been on that journey and   who are suitably qualified and supported, can do  some incredible work in this space. And I think   those organisations that I work with who really  recognise that, and also recognise that it’s   not easy, they really reap the rewards in terms  of the quality of the service that they offer.  Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah, absolutely, I think  that’s a powerful and important point. I mean,   if we’re thinking about the idea of  mentoring, taking a step back, perhaps,   you know, what can we learn or what can we do  to support young people who aren’t yet in the   criminal justice system, but might be heading  that way? Have you got any thoughts on that? Professor Rosie Meek I do, and, historically,  there was more research on the role of sport and   physical activity in this context, in the, if  you like, the diversion away from the justice   system. And, historically, we have had some  really good programmes that have almost been   triggered when someone’s been on the periphery of  the justice system. I’m thinking of some of the   programmes that the Youth Justice Board has  supported, some of those diversion schemes,   where “at-risk” young people have been  encouraged to take part in sporting initiatives. Of course, you and I both know there’s such a risk  period when people are excluded from school. I do   think we could be doing more in that space, to  be recognising that that’s such a risk period,   and so many of the children and young  people I work with in prison, I think,   could have been diverted away from the justice  system, if there’d just been a little bit more   robust consultation around what that young person  needed, and maybe some earlier intervention. I also appreciate there’s some very challenging  and complex young people in our justice system.   And I do think those diversion programmes work  when they have the resource and the time and   the capacity to engage on an individual level  with a young person and to sit down and build   a relationship and, again, it will come as no  surprise to you that I suggest often sport and   physical activity can be a great way of building  up that relationship, not always, that the arts   and music can be, also, very effective.  But once that relationship is established,   and that trust is established, to think a  bit more creatively about what that young   person needs to divert them away from the  justice system. And that might be finding   an alternative passion or activity, again,  often sport is a really useful option there. I’m thinking about some of the boxing clubs  that I work with in community settings,   where I think they do some really powerful work  in terms of engaging at-risk groups. It’s seen as   a non-threatening, inclusive community, very  welcoming and, also, a safe space for people   to engage in. You know, so many people are  very passionate about boxing and martial arts,   and in contrary to what some people think, it’s  not that we’re teaching violent people to fight,   it’s that we’re actually instilling a sense  of community and discipline and respect. So,   for some of those, sort of, community-based  organisations, I think they do incredible work,   and they’ve suffered from terrible  cuts to funding in recent years,   and that’s been very short sighted because if  we can divert just one person away from entering   the criminal justice system, we’re making  enormous both social and economic savings. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm, absolutely. I mean,  really struck, again, by the idea, you know,   whether it’s a prison culture or  whether it’s a school culture,   the idea of moving or shifting it  just a little bit adjacent to the   system that might be associated with  some difficult feelings, let’s say… Professor Rosie Meek Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …and that exploring,  whether it’s sport or whether it’s art   or whether – it doesn’t – you know,  whatever it is, it’s not exactly at   the centre of the prison or the school, but  it’s adjacent. And that allows a different   opportunity to develop relationships  and explore these valuable skills,   it’s a really simple, but inte – incredibly  powerful idea just to move things out a bit. Professor Rosie Meek It is, it is, and just  related to that, you’ve just reminded me of   one of my dreams, which I’m determined  to see come into effect before I retire. Dr Jane Gilmour Dare to  dream, Rosie, dare to dream. Professor Rosie Meek I do dream big, but one  of these dreams is relatively straightforward.   I think that all young people who are in the  justice system should be able to access some kind   of sport fund, where they can – it might be used  to fund membership of a gym, or access to kit,   sporting kit, or travel so that they can get to  train. You know, that might sound like a very,   kind of, liberal, nice to have, sort of,  opportunity, but, again, I think this would   be an incredible cost saver in the long-term.  Because so many of the young people I work with   would love to be kept busy and engaged and they’d  like nothing more than to be training every night   with people who they respect and admire. But they  don’t have necessarily that nice, middleclass   family structure, who’s going to be able to  ferry them around. And behind the – and some   of the work I did with a great organisation called  UK Active was this very notion, that we should be   opening up the physical activity spaces in our  schools for people in the community to access. So, yeah, sorry, I went on a tangent  there, but that’s I think one of the   examples of where if you think creatively and  you ask young people what they want and need,   we can come up with actually  some quite cost-effective… Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah. Professor Rosie Meek …policy ideas. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah, I think we just have  to, you know, open up our creative minds,   and I think that’s absolutely right, it’s very  interesting ‘cause it’s not – you know, the   savings are, as you say, personal and, you know,  economic, if you think about the cost to society. Okay, so we’ve been talking a bit about the way  that there’s always a way back when we mess up,   and mistakes are often learning opportunities. So,   I wondered if you could be generous and  share an experience that perhaps didn’t   work out the way you had expected, but  perhaps it taught you something useful? Professor Rosie Meek Oh, that’s a great  one. I think in academia, as you’ll know,   Jane, we’re juggling a lot of different  things, and I think this – many people,   even if they’re not an academic, can subscribe  to that in this modern day, where we’re juggling   so many different roles and responsibilities, and  we like to think that we’re very capable and able   to do so much. And I think sometimes we’ve all,  and I recognise myself in this, got to rec – got   to see where we have reached our limit a little  bit and we’re spreading ourselves too thin, and   to prioritise what we have to do in the immediate  here and now, and we are all the better for that. And I hold my hand up that during a  very productive time in my career,   my own health and wellbeing wasn’t being  prioritised. And I realised I have to walk   the walk and talk the talk, I promote the  importance of sport and physical activity   in health and wellbeing, and a few years ago, I  realised I wasn’t prioritising that for my own   health and wellbeing. And therefore, wasn’t able  to offer my students and the people I work with,   and my colleagues, and people in prison,  as good a engagement as I could be. So, yeah, that’s one area where I’ve reflected  and realised, actually, I do need to factor in   time for health and wellbeing. Just this weekend  just gone, I was at a yoga festival, for example.   And in days gone by, I might have thought, I’m too  busy, I’ve got too much work to catch up on over   the weekend, or something like that, so that’s  – I don’t know if that’s the kind of example   that you were thinking of, but it’s certainly  something that has made me reflect a little bit. Dr Jane Gilmour But I think that’s a really  important one, because it’s a false economy   to think, you know, if I work more hours, I’ll  get more done, and going to a different space   again and guess what happens? You know, you can  recharge and reboot in a quite wonderful way,   so that yeah, I’ll take that one.  That’s a excellent piece of advice. Okay, so, now it’s time to ask our  final big question, now what? So,   here, I’d like one practical  tip, something, if possible,   low-cost, but high-impact, that will  improve services for young people. Professor Rosie Meek Hmmm, see, I’m finding it  difficult to narrow this down to one. You know,   we’ve already talked a little bit about my dream  of young people being able to access a, kind of,   a sports fund or something. But it’ll come as  no surprise, and I do think that we should be   encouraging young people to practise risk taking  in a healthy sporting type of environment,   and to integrate activities in  ways that we wouldn’t normally.  So, for example, I’ve started doing walking  interviews in prisons, a walking methodology   where we walk side-by-side, and people can  be very open and receptive to that approach.   It breaks down some of those barriers  that we might traditionally see. So,   what I’m getting at here is, I think we  should and could be a bit more creative   about how we engage with young people that  we work with, and that more often than not,   they really welcome that, as long as  it’s co-designed with those young people. So, I’ve just been doing a project  with women and girls in prison,   who are recognised as being the least active  population in our prison population. And when   I actually speak to women and girls, it’s not  that they don’t want to be physically active,   it’s that they haven’t been given the  opportunities to do things that chime   with them. They haven’t really been consulted  enough on what they want or what they need. So, it may sound very obvious, but collaborating  with the people that we work with to design the   interventions, or the programmes, or the  initiatives, that we want to offer them   should always be the first step. And I think  many of us sometimes assume we know from the   literature and from our previous practice, and  to factor in time to consult with, and properly   engage with those people that we are working  with, so that they do have some ownership over,   and some really valuable contributions into  what we’re doing, is massively rewarding and… Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm. Professor Rosie Meek …very important. Dr Jane Gilmour I think that’s wonderful,  using the consultative model with young people,   as a first step, and, pardon the pun,  I love the idea of the walking context,   because you’re on a journey  and if it’s a difficult… Professor Rosie Meek Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …conversation, you  know it’s going to come to an end,   it’s not quite as intense,  there’s so much in that,   and there is no cost involved in walking, as  compared to sitting, you know, face-to-face. Professor Rosie Meek Absolutely. Dr Jane Gilmour So, I think  with that inspirational advice,   it’s really wonderful, we’ve come to  the end of our episode. But, Rosie,   I wanted to thank you so much for sharing  your superb and really creative strategies,   that are going to help so many young people get  back on track, I’m really grateful, so thank you. Professor Rosie Meek You’re very welcome.  It’s been lovely to talk – chat to you. Dr Jane Gilmour Thank you.