Dr Jane Gilmour Welcome to Inside the Teen Brain.  This ACAMH series will leave you inspired by best practice and armed with tips to transform your  work. I’m Dr Jane Gilmour, Clinical Lecturer, Consultant Psychologist, Author and Broadcaster  with a special interest in the teenage brain. In adolescence, the brain is in a unique  state. Its core drives include identity, novelty, risk-taking, peers, respect, autonomy and  intense emotions. In discussion with leading CAMHS professionals, each episode will explore these  developmental drives and during our conversation, we answer three big questions what’s  the literature, so what and now what? Today, we examine risk-taking. This episode is  called “Risky Business,” and so, to our first big question, what does the literature tell us?  Risk means that the outcome is uncertain. It might be potentially dangerous, like taking street  drugs, but it could be positive, like starting a new class. This episode is one of two looking  at different aspects of risk-taking. Here we consider the benefits of taking a chance, another  Inside the Teen episode examines the negatives. The biological invitation for risk-taking  in adolescence is well established across different generations and different  species. We know from Willoughby’s review of longitudinal and cross-sectional  data, that aspects of positive risk-taking may peak later in the developmental period,  as compared to negative risk-taking behaviour. Risk is often driven by exploration and as  Ellis argues, using an evolutional framework, it’s important for personal development.  Taking a positive risk means we’re learning, tolerating uncertainty, experiencing failure  and still surviving. Something to consider, given the likelihood that there are increasing  rates of perfectionism in young people. There are, of course, individual differences. Some young people are risk averse in general  and others aren’t. But interestingly, there are indications that those individuals who  are risk-takers and sensation seekers are more likely to take both good and bad risks.  While some have a propensity for risk, the setting impacts the individual, too. Young  people take more risks in emotional contexts, with peers or where there is opportunity.  Lab-based experiments show a generally younger peak in risk-taking as compared to observed  natural experiments, leading some to argue that risky behaviour would per – peak earlier in life  if young people were left to their own devices. Our current cohort of young people is  sometimes described as ‘generation sensible’. Western trends, over the last 40 years, show  falling risks of risk-taking with alcohol, smoking, drugs and in sexual health, though  interestingly, vaping seems an exception. We know that generational shifts in risk-taking  patterns can occur, which is consistent with our understanding of the influence of context.  So, if there’s a cohort effect, do we need to encourage a proportion of our young people to find  those all-important opportunities for risk-taking, embrace positive risk and dare to dream?  After all, what’s life without a little risk? So, now we turn to our second big question  and ask, so what? To figure out the practical implications, I’m delighted to welcome Dom  – Dr Dominique Thompson. Let me start that big question and ask, so what? To figure out  the practical implications, I’m delighted to welcome Dr Dominique Thompson, a multi-amore –  award winning GP with decades of NHS clinical experience. She’s a TEDx speaker and Educator and  has authored numerous books, including the very popular “Student Wellbeing” series. President of  the Student Health Association, Clinical Advisor to NICE and Student Minds, Dominique is perfectly  placed to help us develop best practice ideas for young people. So, welcome to our series,  Dominique. It’s really great to have you. Dr Dominique Thompson Thank you.  I’m really looking forward to it. Dr Jane Gilmour First of all, can you just tell us a little bit  about the work that you’re doing now? Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. So, I’ve  taken on more of a consultancy role, which I view as being allowed to  go behind the curtain in lots of, you know, university institutions, to try and  help them improve their student mental health, wellbeing, support. I also go into schools  to talk to them and their parents’ body and so on about how we support teenagers  in an ever-increasingly complex world. Dr Jane Gilmour I love that idea  of going “behind the curtain.” Dr Dominique Thompson It… Dr Jane Gilmour And it does  suggest that one small change can have a wide effect. It’s actually a  very interesting position to be in because… Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …the effects could  be, you know, pretty widespread. Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour So, as you know, this  episode focuses particularly on risk-taking, and we know that’s one of the key tasks  of the teenage brain. And I want you to think about the many young people that you  support, you know, behind that curtain. Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour Many of whom are  making the transition to uni or college. Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour And explain why you think it’s important to take risks. Dr Dominique Thompson Well, as I try to explain  to them, really, when I’m – when I’ve been talking to them about some of the things they’re  struggling with, humans have always taken risks. It’s how we’ve evolved. You know, we didn’t sit in  our caves with Deliveroo delivering our lunch. We had to go out there and hunt for it, find it, try  which berry was going to be okay and which wasn’t. So, we have had that as part of our history  forever and we still need to be able to take good risks, healthy risks, to explore the world around  us, to explore ourselves, to find out what kind of person we are going to be, what we want to be.  If we don’t do that, if we don’t get comfortable with that idea of trying new things, it limits  us, really. It limits our opportunities. So, I’m a very big fan of taking good risks, whilst,  of course, being aware of what the more difficult risks might be, as well. So, that’s how I try  to frame it when I’m talking to young people. Dr Jane Gilmour And I think that’s really  interesting to bring in the idea to young people about the, sort of, personal development,  “This is something that’s good for you.” Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour But it’s also good for  society. I often think about, you know, the benefits that society gets from risktakers,  from innovators, you know, think about technology and so on. So, it’s an interesting philosophical  shift, sometimes. When we talk about risk, the immediate definition is often danger, and  here, you’re turning it around and saying, “Think about the positive aspects of it.  There’s lots to be gained from taking a risk.” Dr Dominique Thompson Oh, absolutely. I think  with a lot of these things, unfortunately, young people’s minds might immediately go to, you  know, what’s the worst that could happen? And so, I try to swap it round and think, what’s the  best that could happen? You might try a new sport or a new activity. You go to university and  someone says, “Come along to ultimate frisbee.” And you think, oh, no, I can’t do that, I’ll  look a right wally doing that, or whatever the current word is. But, you know, I’ll look  silly doing something I’m not very good at, and there’s a risk, you know, it’s taking a  risk, isn’t it? But the best-case scenario is, well, even if you don’t like it, you might  meet a new friend or see a new part of the city or university that you’ve gone to. So,  I do try to, sort of, flip it round the other way and get them to think about what could  be the best thing that comes out of this. Dr Jane Gilmour So, expanding that idea of  what the outcome might be. That’s really… Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …nice. I’m just going to pick  you up on that idea of what ‘the current word’ is, ‘cause I did notice in your book you said, you  know, “Do not use the young person’s vernacular.” Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour Although we must know, you know, what the phrases mean and you have got  a very helpful little list of, you know, what the phrases and what, you know, what we  might suggest it means in more traditional terms. Dr Dominique Thompson Oh, I know, I’m  regularly told off by my 14-year-old when I say what I think might be the current  word, “Oh, my God, it’s so embarrassing, please don’t say that.” But –  so, I now just go with my words, the words that were probably only useful,  you know, in the 80s, but here we are. Dr Jane Gilmour But we have  to translate into teen. So, I… Dr Dominique Thompson Yes. Dr Jane Gilmour …love that, so thank you, ‘cause it’s a actually helpful list. Of course,  it’s always evolving, but it’s very helpful. Dr Dominique Thompson Always, yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour So, this idea of exploring  the world and thinking about alternative outcomes is fundamental to some young people  and we know particularly in the media, but, you know, in some cases both in the academic  literature, as well as the mainstream media, that there’s the idea of so-called ‘generation  sensible’. We know that there are potentially these generational shifts in patterns of  risk-taking. So, do you have experience of generation sensible? What is your  experience of that group of young people? Dr Dominique Thompson Oh, well, I certainly  have known a lot of them over my two decades of NHS work. I’ve probably – I reckoned I did about  78,000 consultations as a GP with students. So, now, obviously, I talk to, you know, students,  but also teens in schools, and I think ‘sensible’ is probably not – it’s not quite the right  word, is it? I think there is something more about – they’re actually well informed, so they’re  trying to make well informed decisions, but it’s tinged with that anxiety and that risk aversion.  And I can’t think of a quick word for that, but it’s – they are thoughtful, they are sensible  to an extreme, but – to an extent. But for me, the bit that worries me is the risk aversion.  The actual – the active “No.” The, sort of, oh, actually, I won’t try that, I won’t  do that because of what might happen, because of my, you know, worries around  it. Which unfortunately, as we’ve said, means they don’t build their confidence in the  same way, or they don’t discover these new things. So, I know that we always like to give it a title, but I think there’s something  between being well informed, they’re well educated, but also, potentially,  a bit more anxious than they should be. Dr Jane Gilmour So, that’s interesting, so the, sort of, emotional context is not  implied in generation sensible. Dr Dominique Thompson No. Dr Jane Gilmour It’s almost  a suggestion in generation sensible that that’s an informed choice,  “Well, I’m choosing not to do that.” Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour But what you’re describing  is a group of young people that are anxious and worried and might’ve taken a  chance if they felt that, you know, there was something in it or something that  was potentially less dangerous. So, that’s a really interesting nuance there that you’ve  raised, and I think that suggestion of anxiety, the fear of what iffing. I call this what  iffing. “What happens if? What happens if?” Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour And you’ve  raised the idea of, you know, there’s – there are positive outcomes, but  the suggestion that there’s a significant number of young people – and you’re – you  were seeing them in your consulting room. Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour And you’re describing seeing them  in schools and universities and colleges, as well. Dr Dominique Thompson Yes. I mean, I definitely  saw what we, as maybe medical professionals, or Public Health Doctors, would be jumping  up and down for joy with, because we saw, you know, less smoking, less alcohol, less binge  drinking. We know that, on a day-to-day basis, that’s what’s happening. We also know it from  studies. I mean, one of the big studies that I read and – with fascination, was a study  that was led, actually, by a team from New Zealand. It was about “The great decline in  adolescent risk-taking” and it talked about the five big topics, where, you know, we’re seeing  internationally, less smoking, less alcohol, less early sexual contact, less juvenile crime,  less drugs. I think I’ve probably missed one, but anyway, it was that sort of thing. And, you know, we, healthcare professionals, would be going, “That’s brilliant, that’s what we  want, but” and this is the problem. It comes with, also, less going out, less meeting  new people, less trying to new things, less going to new places. And that’s the problem,  it’s about having a balance where they should be trying some new things. It’s normal for teens to  try some new things and in fact, the studies do show that they still try what they call the ‘novel  risks’. You know, if there’s a weird new drug or vaping or something like that, they did try it  in quite nu – you know, big numbers. But it, unfortunately, plays out that if they’re doing  all of those things that are bad for them less, they’re also doing the stuff that’s good for  them less, and that, for me, was the real worry. And I’d go into universities, as I said, well,  post-COVID, certainly, I’ve got Lecturers and Academics that I’ll go and talk to and they’ll  say to me, “Nobody comes to the actual lecture theatre anymore.” And if we put to one side the  whole issue around cost of living crisis, that many of them have part-time jobs and we didn’t  see that as much before, if we just look at the ones who could come, a lot of those Lecturers were  saying to me, “They’re in their rooms and they’re, kind of, checking in online and they’re doing the  work. They don’t want to leave their rooms.” And maybe it’s because, you know, for the whole COVID  period, of course, they were told, “Stay at home, don’t go out.” And when you are told that at  such a, kind of, crucial developmental stage, well, that stays with you. So, you go to a  new place and it feels safer to be in your room. And it’s taking time, I think, for that  to fade away and for people, young people, students, to, you know, come out, co – go away  to university, of course, to leave home and to try those new experiences. So, we are seeing  it play out in a very practical, real way. Dr Jane Gilmour And it’s interesting as  you’re describing it, these young people who are apparently achieving very well and  possibly, you know, submitting their work on time. Perhaps, you know, we might hypothesise  a subgroup who have perfectionist tendencies. Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour But actually, we’re worried  about their long-term personal development because of that difference in  these crucial developmental years. You know, the lessons we  learn in the teenage years and then… Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …in early adulthood burn deeply. Dr Dominique Thompson Oh… Dr Jane Gilmour So… Dr Dominique Thompson …absolutely, yeah.  So – and I can just give a couple of more examples of where I’ve heard it, as well, at  different levels, which makes me think it’s going to come through. As you say, it’s  coming through for the next generation, is I’ve got all the Teachers that I talk to who  tell me about the kids that won’t go on school trips. They won’t go – or they’ll go for one day,  but they won’t stay overnight at the camping trip, or something like that, many, many more  now. It used to be maybe one in the class would have a personal reason for doing that,  but now that it’s actually quite a big deal. Or I was talking to a medical school about how  they’re having issues with their medical students, who have signed up for, you know, a  pretty challenging course and so on, so they’re really academically able and  the rest of it, but they don’t want to go on placements. They don’t want to leave  the bit they have become familiar with. So, they’re two or three years into their  course. It’s not even the very beginning, but they’re then very nervous and asking,  “Well, can I – can my placement actually be here? Can I stay close to the medical  school, because I don’t want to go away, it feels unfamiliar, it feels uncomfortable?”  So, in all sorts of very practical ways, we’re seeing that anxiety, for want of a better  word, that nervousness of new things playing out. Dr Jane Gilmour Hmmm, so, you know, I think  you talk very convincingly about this group, so what are we going to do about it? How can we  support them? Do you have practical ideas that our ACAMH audience could think about in  terms if they recognise this group, who wouldn’t necessarily pre – be presenting at  CAMHS? They wouldn’t – they probably would be under the radar, but nonetheless,  they are likely to need support. Dr Dominique Thompson Well, let’s look  at it, then, as an extra life skill, that if you’re seeing somebody, you know, you’re  their Therapist in some – but also if, you know, if you’re a Teacher or you’re a parent, there  are things that you can do that build that tolerance around change, because nobody finds  change comfortable. We know that’s a big thing, I mean, that’s a normal human thing, but  actually, getting comfortable with some change could be seen as a life skill. And so,  if you were, you know, seeing this generation, I would be doing, I mean, you might think this  is quite odd, but things like if they’re coming to see you and you sit in the same place every  week, or every – or you’re in a group, you know, they’re doing group work, get them all to move  around. Get them to sit in a different place. See how comfortable they feel with, you know,  telling you about, you know, how do they go out to either meet their friends or go somewhere?  Do they take a different route? Could they take a different route? Just a little difference. Have  they tried a new food recently? Get everyone to, sort of, think about, “What new food did you try  in the last month?” And if they haven’t recently, get them to think about how they might do  that. It – you’re not forcing anyone. I totally understand it’s going to, you know,  depend on what they’re there for, obviously, around food and stuff. But the point is  it’s about the smaller everyday changes, so that when they come to think about going on  the school trip or going away to university, that concept of things being different  and not always staying the same is already something they’re more familiar  with than they might’ve been. And when I’ve talked to Teachers, I’ve done a  couple of inset days and I’ve mentioned this, sort of, phenomenon, amongst other things,  and I said, you know – I’m not teaching them how to teach. That’s their job, but “Get them  comfortable.” Because you know what it’s like, you get, I don’t know, Year Nine together and  they’ll all come in and they’ll always sit with their buddies, but they might know the other  people in the class. Try and get them to maybe move around, so they sit with just one other  person. So, there’s no, like, ganging up or feeling really uncomfortable. It’s just one  person, sit with someone they don’t normally sit with and just for five/ten minutes, get them  to try and have a conversation with that person. You’ve got to pick when you’re doing it and I  do think it’s probably better as you go older through the school, as well. Building – it’s not  just building the social skills, but it means that when they arrive at college or uni, they  can have a conversation with the person who’s in the room opposite them or sitting next to  them, if they ever get to a lecture theatre, next to them, and say, “Oh,” you know,  “hi.” And not just always the, kind of, “What A levels did you do?” you know that,  kind of, really, terrified initial talk. But just be a bit more familiar with people who  are not necessarily just your friends that you’re familiar. It’s not rocket science. I’m not  saying anything terribly surprising, but it is… Dr Jane Gilmour But I li… Dr Dominique Thompson …getting them… Dr Jane Gilmour But it’s such… Dr Dominique Thompson …to do it. Dr Jane Gilmour And it’s such an important one, because we know for teenagers,  particularly, social risk-taking is… Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …one of the  riskiest risks, you know… Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …that is imaginable, because  of that pull towards peer integration. So, I think the idea of a small, gradual, well timed… Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …risk, within the social context, is a really important one, and getting  used to that moment of uncertainty… Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …is a – in social situations,  is highly valuable. And these are these – these are the ideas that, you know, we want  to be applying day-to-day. So, you know… Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …you’re saying, “It’s not rocket  science.” The simple ideas are the best ideas, because those are the ones we can do  day-after-day and become habit forming. So… Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm hmm. Dr Jane Gilmour …I love that one. Dr Dominique Thompson No, that’s great, and it –  for the parents, you know, if you’re the – whether you’re the Therapist or a parent, one of the  things I put in my “Growing a Grown Up” book was about how to get teens and young people to  talk to people of different generations. So, you know when you have your family get together  a couple of times a year, might be every weekend, depends on your family, get them used to talking  to people from different age groups and so on. It’s an easy, safe way, isn’t it, to, sort of,  go and have a chat with granny or your Auntie Margaret, or whatever. Because then, when you meet  your Academic Lecturer, and they’re of a different generation or whatever, you are more familiar  already with the fact that there are, you know, different kinds of people out there. Dr Jane Gilmour Yeah, absolutely, that’s great. So, Dominique, we’ve talked  about risk-taking, and we know one of the risk – that one of the benefits, rather,  of risk-taking is that we learn, you know, we can fail and we will still survive,  right? We’ll make it out the other side. So, I think we should take a dose of our own medicine  and I want you to describe an aspect of your work that didn’t go as planned, but ultimately,  it was valuable to you. Can you think… Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. Dr Jane Gilmour …of something? Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah, I mean, it is true  that, especially if you are a bit perfectionistic, and I do talk about perfectionism a lot, but  with absolute insight that I know where I stand on that scale a little bit, that it’s  very hard to deal with that sort of thing, sometimes. And I do remember, this is going back a  bit, but I had decided I wanted to do paediatrics, actually, as a medical career. That was what I  was going to do, spoiler alert. Obviously did not happen. But here I was at my interview and  there were five jobs going and there were six of us sitting there waiting for interviews.  So, we knew that at the end of the day, somebody would be, you know, the one  sent home. And at the end of the day, it was me that didn’t get the  job and I was shocked. I mean, I was that really nerdy person who had never even  failed their driving test at this point. You know, I was completely flummoxed. I didn’t know what  had gone wrong and there was no obvious thing. So, I walked back to my car after the interview  and I drove back to the job I was doing at the time, ‘cause I had to – you know, you were  a Senior House Officer, so a Junior Doctor and I had to go to work. And I went into  A&E where I was working and I thought, what am I going to do? You know, this is  jus – this was unprecedented, and also, I had no other plan. You know, I now had a  gaping hole in my schedule, as they say. So, I thought right, okay, just get on with the  shift. So, I got on with the shift and we did have the odd break in those days. I was,  like – was going to go and make a cup of tea or whatever. Went into the staffroom and someone  had put up a poster for Raleigh International, Operation Raleigh, as it was then, ‘cause  this is going back a bit. And I thought, well, I’ve got nothing else to do. I’d, sort of, vaguely  heard of it, but I didn’t know what it was. So, I contacted them and said, “Do you need a Doctor  or any” – “Yes, we’ve got an expedition going very soon to Malaysia.” I was like, okay, sign  up for that, and it was a complete, sort of, reaction because I had failed massively, had no  plan, no Plan B. Thought right, I’ll just do this, fill in the time and then, I’ll come back and go  for the next, you know, interview when I get back. And I went on the trip, and it was the  best thing I probably have ever done, in many ways, of the excitement of being  on an expedition, meeting different people, looking after young people. It was the first  time I was a, sort of, young person’s Doctor, and it changed everything when I got back. So,  it really was quite a, sort of, turnaround, but I do genuinely believe that thing that if a  door closes, another one does open. It may not be quite that, sort of, obvious or fast or you may  not realise it’s a door at that point, but yeah, for me, that has always been something I remind  myself when things do not go according to plan. Dr Jane Gilmour But that’s a brilliant and  inspirational story and in fact, you know, I do some support for young people and students  finding jobs and thinking about career paths, and I often say, actually, “Doing  something – not getting the job or doing something and finding you don’t like it is  so important, because it allows you to, you know, to finetune your final path in a way that you  wouldn’t otherwise do.” But I love that idea that, you know, from going from, you know, a  considered job into Operational Raleigh, which I know of, is an amazing  initiative. So, that’s fantastic. Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah, yeah, very different. Dr Jane Gilmour So, let’s – we’ve turn – we’ve  thought about the past a little bit. Let’s look at the future now. So, I know that you’re involved  with Ed Watkins and his MRC funded project, “Bounce Back,” or at least that’s part of  the project. And the initiative is aimed at developing resilience and of course,  risk-taking and resilience making are very closely connected. Can you say a little bit  about the project and what it’s aiming to do? Dr Dominique Thompson I can say a little bit. Dr Jane Gilmour Or results if you have them. Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah. No, I’m – it’s,  sort of, early days in that sense, but also, I’m part of the Clinical Advisory Group to  the whole big project, rather than just, sort of, definitely involved in one  aspect of it, the Bounce Back bit. So, I know about Bounce Back, because it’s  part of a lot of different things that are happening under the “Nurture-U” umbrella,  which Ed, as you mentioned, is, you know, is leading on. And it is to – it’s an intervention  to support students at Exeter University, with a workbook and a Therapist, sort of,  supporting them, to see if you can develop that ability to deal with the unexpected  and deal with things when they go wrong. So, I, like everybody else, am waiting  to see what the results will be and in fact, there are – you know, the whole team is  overseeing, sort of, a whole range of different interventions to see what works for student mental  health and wellbeing, Bounce Back being a part of that umbrella group of interventions. So, it will  be really interesting to see if we can, you know, help students to deal with some of this unexpected  stuff that happens in life, because we know that as a whole generation coming through, they are  dealing with challenges that are really, you know, quite extreme in some ways, with, you know,  whether it’s financial or housing, obviously, all the academic stuff, and perfectionism and so  on. So, you know, it will be an interesting one to see the results of. I’m not the expert, but yeah,  I’m looking forward to seeing what they find. Dr Jane Gilmour Well, maybe you can come  back and tell us a little bit about the, you know, the findings and where next. Dr Dominique Thompson Yes. Dr Jane Gilmour Which brings us to  our final question, the now what? Dr Dominique Thompson Hmmm. Dr Jane Gilmour So, I would like a  tip which could be easily embedded to existing practice and perhaps given  the topic we’ve discussed today, something low risk and high yield? So,  what have you got in terms of tips for us? Dr Dominique Thompson Yeah, I guess I’d keep  it reasonably simple in that I would say try one new thing this week. It’s a weekly challenge,  so it’s not too difficult, it’s not overwhelming. You don’t have to – you know, if you’re having  a bad day, you don’t have to feel like oh, I have to do something every day. I think that  if we look to ourselves and to try new things, it will mean different things for different  people. For some people, that might be quite a big new thing. It might be, you know, going to a  new social group or joining a new sports club or, you know, last year or the year before, I  tried paddleboarding, which was a complete and unmitigated disaster and I won’t be doing  again. But I learnt many things, I learnt that it’s not for me, but it gave me confidence that  I’d tried it. And I think, you know, sometimes we have to try something that’s a bit out there. the park and you just go a different way round. I  think try one new thing a week and if people feel comfortable doing that, and if you’re a new  student, for example, you’ve just arrived at university, or you’ve just started at college, you  know, you’re 16/17, try one new thing. That might be people say, “We’re going for a coffee after  the lecture,” you know, say yes to that. But it might be that you, you know, you pick something  smaller. It’s absolutely fine. That’s my tip. Dr Jane Gilmour I love that, “try one  new thing,” and whether we are, you know, thinking about our young people we’re  supporting or indeed, the professionals, it’s a great tip. You never know what  we might discover about our practice… Dr Dominique Thompson Yes. Dr Jane Gilmour …or, you know, what we  might discover in terms of supporting our young people. So, that’s a great  tip that can applied everywhere. Dr Dominique Thompson Yes. Dr Jane Gilmour Okay, well, listen, we have  come to the end of this episode and I – it just remains for me to say thank you, Dominique,  for sharing your vast experience with the… Dr Dominique Thompson No, thank you. Dr Jane Gilmour …ACAMH audience,  and it’s been an absolute pleasure. Dr Dominique Thompson Yes,  thanks very much, indeed.